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 Post subject: Isuzu F1 early '90s - Lotus/Isuzu?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:11 pm 
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Yes I have already posted this pic on here/elsewhere and it's mostly gone unnoticed (I think). Due to my interest in the sport I again ask the question "Does anyone have any info on this thing"?

Image

Only info I've ever found:

"One notable no-show was the Japanese Isuzu V12 that Lotus tested in 1991. Little is known of this engine apart from that it was secretly tested in 1991. The only public viewing was when the engine was shown at the Tokyo Motor Show in 1991"

Now, in 1991, Lotus from memory were running around the back end of the field using basically a 3 year old chassis with a Judd 3.5lt V8 engine scoring a couple of points only. Main drivers were Brit Jonny Herbert and a very young future World Champion Mika Hakkinen.

Image

However in 1992, Lotus indeed designed and manufactured a brand new chassis which combined with the customer version Ford HB V8 engine (Benetton were the factory supplied team) rewarded them with multiple points finishes throughout the season. Again from memory, in 1992 Lotus joined Williams to be the first F1 Teams to pioneer Active Suspension. In coming years Williams Renault would dominate with Mansell and then Prost due to this suspension system.

What could have been!

Image

1991 Turbo Lotus Esprit on the Amiga 500 - 1 of the best car games for its vintage, the 1991 Lotus/Isuzu Elan was included!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:22 pm 
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Chassis #:

1990 Lotus 102 Lamborghini
1991 Lotus 102B Judd
1991 Lotus 102C Isuzu (experimental)
1991 Lotus 103 ???? (never built - Isuzu????)
1992 Lotus 107 Ford

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Last edited by Union76 on Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:31 pm 
The only thing i could find relating to the Isuzu V12 was this post on another site http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/91160-why-di ... en-f1.html


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:33 pm 
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Peter Collins head of Lotus F1 commenting early 1992:

'A big part of any budget is to have an engine supplier behind you. The major spenders in motor racing are the tobacco companies and the motor manufacturers. I don't think you can say that they will necessarily continue to be involved in the 1990s.'

Lotus has not had manufacturer support since its split with Honda at the end of 1987, but last year a 102C chassis appeared testing a mysterious Isuzu V12 engine.

'It was a very serious attempt to run an engine and look at its capability with a view to the future,' explains Collins, 'but not necessarily in 1992. The timing between the first meetings and when we ran the engine was very short. Although the engine did show potential, it would certainly not have been the right thing to do in 1992. As to the future, it depends what the company wants to do with its engine.'

At the same time the new technology-led Lotus is looking to breakthroughs in other areas. Trying to get ahead in the technology race.

'We've done three or four tests with the active suspension system,' says Collins. 'It's working well. There are advantages, but we would like to see a bigger performance gain before we commit to using it. The technology is there but it is important not to do too much in one step. The 107 will be able to run both active and passive.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:37 pm 
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becoming a post whore!

Passing comment:

The Lotus-Isuzu one's been mentioned a few times - it got a bit of coverage in the comics at the time, but nobody seems to be willing to say much about how serious it was. Given that there was an Isuzu engine going into the new Elan, and the relationships between Lotus and Isuzu and GM... was this a back-door way of trying to get a GM tie-up for a serious go at F1, or was it a case of "there's an engine Isuzu have got sitting on the shelf and they're part of the family...."...?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:52 pm 
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kawa wrote:
The only thing i could find relating to the Isuzu V12 was this post on another site http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/91160-why-di ... en-f1.html


Read that, interesting comment.......

Did I read this properly - Isuzu V12 in a McLaren F1 road car? It was considered even for a brief moment. Far out!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:04 pm 

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Jalopnik:
http://jalopnik.com/cars/jalopnik-fanta ... 327268.php
Quote:
Murray shopped around for an engine, initially trying with Honda and then Isuzu. Honda was a real possibility, as their engines had been powering McLaren's Formula 1 cars for some time. Honda eventually backed away and McLaren decided that as nifty as Isuzu's 3.5-liter V12 would be, they needed to go with a manufacturer that had racing cred.


Rumorpedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_F1
Quote:
When Honda refused, Isuzu, then planning an entry into Formula 1, had a 3.5 V12 engine being tested in a Lotus chassis. The company was very interested in having the engine fitted into the F1. However, the designers wanted an engine with a proven design and a racing pedigree.


Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTyaoMnG8kY
Description in English paraphrases the above two statements, language is Japanese, may or may not state the same.



The engine was used in the Lotus open wheel race car, considered by McLaren, and eventually found its way, or was intended for use in the Como concept car.
Image
The Como was a mid engine sister car to the Buick Wildcat concept car. The Buick had a GM V8, and the running version of the Como may also have had a Chevy V8. The Como appeared at the 29th Tokyo Auto Show.

The Isuzu V12 specs are 3.5 liter displacement and 740ps/13500rpm, 42kgm/11000rpm.

The engine is currently believed to be in the "basement" of one of the Japanese car club presidents. One problem with this theory is that Japanese homes do bot have basements. But the suspected owner has more than a few other goodies that indicate that if he does not have the engine, he probably knows where it is.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:48 pm 
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Very interesting info "JT191" - what could have been I guess............

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:21 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:26 am
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I have uncovered a few more details about this.

In 1989, F1 changed its rules to prohibit turbochargers, and the naturally aspirated V12 became the standard. The engine was built as a replacement for the V8 engine in the Lotus 102B.
In addition to the previous cited power and torque, the banks were 75 degree angle, and the weight was 150 kg.

The engine in the chassis was named "Lotus 102C" to distinguish it from the other cars sharing this chassis but with different engines.

The car was tested at Silverstone for a 250km session, driven by Lotus test driver Johnny Herbert, but there is no official record of the lap times. There are only eyewitness accounts that the Isuzu powered Lotus 102C was running nearly identical lap times as the McLaren MP4/6 Honda car that it was sharing the track with during this practice session.

Ownership of the engine is still held by Isuzu Motors, but as of September, 2008, it was being lent to Tamiya Inc. Tamiya has recently acquired a Lotus 102B race car, and they have placed the Isuzu V12 engine next to the Lotus 102B race car, on display in their headquarters building in Shizuoka.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:16 pm 
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That's gonna make one monster R/C car! :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:30 am 
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JT191 wrote:

The car was tested at Silverstone for a 250km session, driven by Lotus test driver Johnny Herbert, but there is no official record of the lap times. There are only eyewitness accounts that the Isuzu powered Lotus 102C was running nearly identical lap times as the McLaren MP4/6 Honda car that it was sharing the track with during this practice session.

Ownership of the engine is still held by Isuzu Motors, but as of September, 2008, it was being lent to Tamiya Inc. Tamiya has recently acquired a Lotus 102B race car, and they have placed the Isuzu V12 engine next to the Lotus 102B race car, on display in their headquarters building in Shizuoka.


Well that is very interesting to know.

http://www.tamiya.com/english/news/even ... /visit.htm from their web site a/the 102B.

Anyone know how to speak/read/write Japanese?!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:56 am 
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BINGO: http://flatout-f1.sakura.ne.jp/page597.html

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:07 am 
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I am now a post whore..............

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:34 am 
It was me who scanned this late little news from an old -British- Autosport.

Still, someone has assured me there was yet another image of the Isuzu V12 engine MATED to the 102C tube. He doesn't remember where exactly he saw it, but he presumes it was in an Autosport also.

I am not having most of August/September/October 1991 Autosport issues, but if such an image ever was published there, somewhere in any of those issues should be.

Thanks to all who could review it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:42 am 
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Union76 wrote:


If you want to read that in English, try going here:

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

And paste that url into the box and it will translate the entire page into English. :tu:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 8:41 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:26 am
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The April 2009 issue of Racing On Motorsport Magazine (No. 437)(Japanese Language), has a series of articles detailing several V12 engines by different manufacturers, which includes the Isuzu V12. The engine model name for this engine is Isuzu P799WE. The specs listed state:

75 degree DOHC V12
690 mm x 580 mm x 495 mm
3493 cc displacement
85 mm x 52.3 mm bore and stroke
13.0 : 1 compression ratio
765ps / 13,500rpm horsepower
42.5kg-m / 11,500rpm
158 kg weight

The dyno chart shows horsepower climbs at a 60 degree or greater angle from 8,000 to 13,500 RPM.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 9:04 am 
Dear JT191,

I sent you a private email a few days ago; did you get it?

I was asking you please for scans of the Japanese magazine in which the Isuzu engine was reviewed.

Was the HKS engine reviewed there as well?

Thank you so much,

david.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:37 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:26 am
Posts: 393
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yuragagarin1961:

I have to decline the request to violate copyright. These are excellent articles, and the writers and publishers should be rewarded for their work, and encouraged to do more work on the same and similar topics. I think Ben and the JNC magazine staff would agree.

Also, these articles cover pages 12 through 62, which is a lot of content.

There is an article on an/the HKS engine.

The publisher's website is at:
http://www.sun-a.com/

They offer back issues and this issue is at:
http://www.sun-a.com/magazine/details.html?id=2186&bn=1

This appears to be the same company that publishes Option and Street Legal, as well as many other magazines. There is one book or magazine that looks very desirable for nostalgic content called "Super Car Chronicle Part 1":
http://www.sun-a.com/magazine/details.html?id=3102
I see Toyota 2000GT, Z, RX-3, RX-7 and 117 Coupe listed in the contents.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:55 pm 
JT191

Thank you for your informations -I knew about the site and publisher, but never found a way for a non-Japanese individual to purchase any product from them (I wonder if someone ever did); wouldn't have asked you for anything openly if I had found a solution, direct or alternative-. So, thanks again and sorry.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:52 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:26 am
Posts: 393
Location: Midwest, USA
The website looks like a relatively conventional shopping cart system. I followed it through to where it asks the buyer to create an account or enter an email address and a password. It says they accept Visa, Mastercard, and American Express (among some others I did not recognize). I do not think that American Express is on the list of international cards accepted in Japan, so this might indicate that they are geared specifically toward export orders.

But they do specifically exclude overseas from subscriptions...


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