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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:16 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:38 pm
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Location: Pasadena, CA, USA
For nostalgic brands, there's: Hino, Prince, Isuzu, Daihatsu, Toyota, Honda, Datsun, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Mazda and Suzuki .


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:27 pm 
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Location: United Kingdom
seventhskyline wrote:
Yeah of course theres the Bellett, 117... But otherwise they built Hillmans for Rootes then T-cars for GM....


Not quite sure what point your making. The Bellel, Bellett, Florian and 117 aren't related to any GM product as far as I am aware and the Piazza isn't exactly a bit of badge engineering either so that only really leaves the Gemini and Aska. Granted those later cars may have been sold in greater quantities but then being later products that's to be expected really. Virtually every Japanese manufacturer has knocked out badge engineered versions of another companied products at some point and as time moves on it's becoming more and more commonplace. Certainly in the US market Mitsubishi have had more badge engineered cars I think.

Granted Isuzu didn't operate as an independant car maker for a long time (only about 18 years) but it did produce it's own cars to it's own designs same as many of the other Japanese manufacturers who became absorbed into other firms such as PMC.

With regard to the discussion about wether small manufacturers deserve their own sections on here then no, from a practical point of view I don't think it'd be worthwhile and would clutter the board up even more than it is now, but then I wouldn't have seperate sections for different marques at all!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:54 pm 
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Ratdat wrote:
With regard to the discussion about wether small manufacturers deserve their own sections on here then no, from a practical point of view I don't think it'd be worthwhile and would clutter the board up even more than it is now, but then I wouldn't have seperate sections for different marques at all!


:tu:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:26 pm
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Burabuda wrote:
if i were king, i'd get rid of marque subcategories entirely

then everybody would have to sort through all threads, even re: makes/models that don't interest them

would people be put out? probably. would people learn a lot more about other makes/models? definitely.


Same here.

Most of the single Marque forums move rather slowly anyhow. If the Toyota forum is moving slow, I doubt an Isuzu forum would move much faster.

I like having less small forums, because I see more and click less. :shrug:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:29 pm 
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When we set up the forums we didn't think Isuzu had a big enough US following to warrant its own section. In fact, we've been mulling over the idea of putting Subaru in with the "Other Marques" section as well.

The idea of combining all marques is an interesting proposition though. Maybe we'll put up a poll and see what the consensus is.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:52 pm 

Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:51 pm
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Location: Tasmania, Australia
I guess...what I am saying is they built limited cars with limited appeal - even within our circles - as did some other small marques.
I think it was probably a good idea to split it only into major marques, or we'd end up with a heap of forums with e-tumbleweeds blowing about.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:43 am 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia.
ok... first off, as some of u may know, i own a 68 Bellett GT, a 67 Wasp pick up, and a 67 Bellett sedan, but i've also owned a couple of other Belletts in the past as well as having been involved in the rebuild/resto of a few more, and i've also spent god-alone knows who much time and money researsching these things over the nearly 20 years that i've been around them, so i think (without sounding like a "know-it-all") i'd have a better idea about the pre-gm isuzu products than most on here, so i'd like to set some stories straight.
i dont mean or wish to offend anyone here with what i'm writing, but it seems that they are alot of theories running around without many facts attached to these theories.
also, this post might seem a bit fragmented, but i'm just reading down the the thread as i go to clear these posts up.

for the record, the forum issue doesn't concern me at all, simply as there are (in my honest opinion) pros and cons each way.
if there was a separate forum, as has been said, there wouldn't be enough traffic on it to warrant the work. opposite to that, the separate forum would give isuzu owners there "own" place to congregate. i have read in here that there are isuzu-dedicated forums about, which is true, but show me a bellett-related one in english, and i'll join it. also, using the "other forum" comment is a bit strange, as there are many more datsun/toyota/etc. forums than isuzu ones about, so by this reasoning, why have these separate datsun/toyota/etc. ones here as well??
leaving it as it is means that the isuzu products are mixed with other makes, which means that sometimes the isuzu cars get lost amongst the rest, but the same can be said for the other makes in the same forum also. opposite again, i like the fact that not too many people know what my cars are, due to very little recognition, and standing out from the crowd of 1600's/240z's/corolla's/celica's/etc is a good thing to turn some heads at car events.

i find that comments like "limited cars with limited appeal" to be very untrue. each person has a liking to something, and personally, i find most datsuns a bit boring. 1600's and 240z's were all the rage 15 years ago, and everyone had one. now the same can be said for the later skyline's. don't get me wrong, they are good cars, but they all seem to be the same and their owners follow the same trends as the other guys who own them as well.
i realise that most early japanese cars have good points, as 99% of us do, but i think that the good points of the bellett are missed in all this, simply because nobody knows enough about them as they do with the main stream makes.
after all, the bellett was offered in 17 different variants over the 10 years they were built, not including the 3 different pick up's and 2 different station wagon's (estate's) that were available too. the bellett was sold with an IRS 5 years before the datsun 1600, which has been a big attraction to the 1600 owners for years and years. the bellett GT was the first japanese car sold with a genuine GT badge and personna, first sold over 12 months before the prince skyline GT. the bellett has a double a-arm front suspension with rack and pinion steering, which is still the prefered set up for race cars, as opposed to struts and steering boxes like most others back then as well as today. the bellett GT-R was a real race car for the road, with a DOHC engine and the rest of the good race stuff, was totally dominant in japan touring/saloon car racing when new and some credit the bellett GT-R's dominance for prompting datsun to build the skyline GTR to combat it, and used the GT-R (with the "-" included) name decades before honda had even thought of it.
the bellett, especially the GT's and GT-R's, still have a big following in japan as a result, and are gaining alot more popularity around the rest of the world as the all of the classic japanese cars are finally being noticed as real classics, instead of odditys from the 1960's and 70's. as a point, i know of about 30 (yes, 30!!) more bellett's and wasp's that have surfaced here in australia alone, over the hundreds that i knew of before, in the last 3 years from the new interest in them, and about half of them have been or are being restored at the moment, with more to go over the next couple of years.
what i'm getting at here is that "appeal" works differently for all, and how boring would the car scene be if we all had the same thing.

gm had no involvement in anything isuzu did before 1973. the bellett was built between 63 and 73, and was removed when gm came into the picture so that they could build the gemini. even though the very first of the gemini's were badged as a "bellett-gemini", the 2 cars are completely different in practically every way. the misleading info about the realtionship of the 2 is created because the even though the bellett and the gemini were built one after the other and share the isuzu name, they share less than 1% of parts between them. engine, gearbox, diff, f & r suspension, brakes, body, everything was changed. the wheels are even a different stud pattern!! as was said earlier, the gemini was gm's influence, more than anyone else.

the bellett was a totally isuzu designed unit, although it did use some ideas that isuzu learnt while they built the english designed hillman minx in the mid to late 1950's. the bellett has a very similar looking engine design, but very few parts are interchangeable. the rest of the car was isuzu done.

there's still a good number of them about these days, especially in japan.
there was over 170,000 bellett's built in the 10 years, 17,500 were GT's, and they were sold in alot of countries, including most of asia, north america, south america, europe, new zealand, the pacific area, and here in australia.

i hope this all helps with what isuzu was up to in the pre-gm bellett days.
cheers.
brett.

BTW... just to show my un-biased-ness, i drive a nissan navara pickup every day with work, and it's a fantastic car. it's much, much better than every other work car i've owned.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:58 pm 
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Location: Australia
Union76,
Your Gemini reminds me of the Brock commodores (the headlights + fin-things on the guards, i don't remember what they were called)
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:50 pm 

Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:51 pm
Posts: 422
Location: Tasmania, Australia
1600GT, don't get me wrong, I wasn't belittling the Isuzu product, I hope it didn't come across that way. I think it just makes sense to have sub forums for the big manufacturers due to the wider appeal. Or no sub forums at all I guess.


Anyway... I saw a very, very clean Bellett sedan today, a sort of lemon/lime kind of colour and rolling about on Special Interest plates (club rego basically). I was at the helm of H.M.S. Stagea so I couldn't very well take any pics.
So even here in Tasmania they have a following.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:29 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:45 am
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Location: australia
hi guys
whilst i'm a big isuzu fan having owned 4 gemini's i can see that unlike datsun and toyota etc there isnt a lot need for to many individual forums.but it makes things a lot easier to find the individual marques that people are intersted in but if you had one for each band the site would be huge(and costly to up i'd imagine.
i'm the current owner of union76's old zz/z gemini these were made for one year only and there are less than 50 known cars left in excistance so pretty rare.
Image

this is how it looks now
ps isuzu even sold the holden statesman in japan with holden motors :shock:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:45 am 
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cdtpf60 wrote:
ps isuzu even sold the holden statesman in japan with holden motors :shock:


they sold statesmans with rotory engines in japan

MATT

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:52 am 
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MATNES wrote:
cdtpf60 wrote:
ps isuzu even sold the holden statesman in japan with holden motors :shock:


they sold statesmans with rotory engines in japan

MATT


Yes that's the Mazda Roadpacer.

But on top of that Isuzu also sold the regular 253cu engined Statesman as the Isuzu Stateman DeVille.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:55 am 
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Ta-da!!

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So weird seeing the old 'boat with fender mirrors :D

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:54 am 
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the mazda roadpacer was a hj or z(i cant remember which) premier you can see that an isuzu statesman is a hq.most were sold to isuzu manager apparently
yep it is odd to see the hq with those mirrors
:shock:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:54 am 

Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:39 am
Posts: 310
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Quote:
I'll be back in a Gemini 1 day Nick! The brand is still close to my heart don't worry about that...... (and still numerous Isuzu parts at home)

Wouldn't mind another 2 door.

Oi Nick, I may have sold out to buy a Skyline but what did you buy fool???? Didn't finish the Coupe off, no we bought a Datsun didn't we? How much did the Datsun cost? Pfft.

Very interested to have a look at what you have done though. The TG dash will look great!


Hey wanker, atleast the 200SX is fast :P Selling it now so i can finish the coupe.

Back on topic.

Its worth noting that even cars with GM input had alot of Isuzu input in them.

I think im one of the few qualified here to talk about the T-car [ive had 6] and i can produce old magazine articles, brochures, tech books etc to back any arguement.

The T-Car criteria was set by GM and Opel, along with the basic external design and suspension to suit various different markets. Im sure we can grasp that bit. NOW, thats not to say there werent significant differences.

For example, although the Opel Kadett and Isuzu/Holden Gemini share the same [in the early incarnation] body shape and basic suspension layout, its worth noting the changes in the following areas:

- Larger brake system front and rear
- Larger/stronger differential
- 1600cc SOHC Crossflow engine designed, developed and built ONLY by Isuzu
- 4 and 5spd gearbox's
- 3spd automatic

The german T car was lumped with an anemic 1.2L engine. Hardly exciting.

Now, the SECOND generation of Gemini WAS ENTIRELY the work of Holden and Isuzu - from body styling, to interior, to production, to suspension and engine changes and development.

Hardly a re-badged GM car.

As the Aska was brought up, worth noting that although the basics were again dictated by GM, the driveline was UNIQUELY Isuzu. Included Isuzu's own engine and gearbox/differential unit. In the case of the Aska Irmscher, it was even offered with a Turbo 2l EFI and lotus-tuned suspension. Again, hardly just a badge swap excersize.

The Piazza was uniquely Isuzu. It used a development of the T-Car chassis with an LSD 4link rear end, Isuzu's own driveline etc etc.

The 117 Coupe was around well before GM took a controlling interest. The only thing affected by the GM take over in regards to the 117, were that it went from being hand-produced onto a production line.

Then theres the Bellet/Wasps, Bellel, Minx, Florian etc etc...

Then theres the 4wd's and light commercials which are ALL Isuzu developed with no real input from GM.

</rant>

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:28 am 
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cdtpf60 wrote:
yep it is odd to see the hq with those mirrors
:shock:


Next thing you'll see Belmonts rolling on deep dish Sakuras :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:25 am 
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kev wrote:
cdtpf60 wrote:
yep it is odd to see the hq with those mirrors
:shock:


Next thing you'll see Belmonts rolling on deep dish Sakuras :lol:

:shock: :lol: now that would be something to see :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:46 am 
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cdtpf60 wrote:
kev wrote:
cdtpf60 wrote:
yep it is odd to see the hq with those mirrors
:shock:


Next thing you'll see Belmonts rolling on deep dish Sakuras :lol:

:shock: :lol: now that would be something to see :lol:


but only if they are the "hotrod" 173 low compression red 6 with the 3 speed column change 'box, drum brakes and bench seat units...!! :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:31 am 
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1600GT wrote:
cdtpf60 wrote:
kev wrote:
cdtpf60 wrote:
yep it is odd to see the hq with those mirrors
:shock:


Next thing you'll see Belmonts rolling on deep dish Sakuras :lol:

:shock: :lol: now that would be something to see :lol:


but only if they are the "hotrod" 173 low compression red 6 with the 3 speed column change 'box, drum brakes and bench seat units...!! :lol:

sweeettt!!!! :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:25 am 
Hey -whats the issue here?

I'm a Brit -I own a 117, Bellett & Florian (in Holland) I've yet to collect.

I also own a Datsun U320 ,P411 &PL411.

Owning none of these makes me an expert -and I dont really care whether there is a seperate section or not.

HOWEVER -I do care that I can ask for help when needed -and know where to look for the answer. What section its in? Who cares?


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