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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 hybrid-ish.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:47 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:37 am
Posts: 164
Location: Ballarat
Those chunks of rubber and steel are for NVH(noise,vibration,harshness).
None of my gearboxes have these anymore. Not to mention, I wouldn't
notice if they were reducing any vibration or noise anyway! :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 hybrid-ish.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:57 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:37 am
Posts: 164
Location: Ballarat
Whether piston or rotary, the 5 speed boxes all have this belly section to allow for
5th gear. Always gotta allow for the extra 175 - 200mm in length.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 hybrid-ish.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:27 pm 
JNC Enthusiast

Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:26 pm
Posts: 743
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Yeah... that's why I was kinda dubious that the 5spd would bolt up without having to shorten the tailshaft.

From my very rough measuring, I need a tailshaft that is 10 cm shorter. I'll do some better measuring during the week. Paging Aaron Hogan... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 wagon. More drama
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:26 pm
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
So during the week I have managed to:

- sell a few rotary bits
- pull the pressure plate and clutch off
- get the flywheel off
- confirm that the rear main seal is definitely leaking

I've also roughly looked at how the 5spd will mount and I may need to modify the 4spd gearbox mount. Not too hard.

I thought that the clutch and pressure plate in the car would be the original one, but it has the Daiken Clutch (DK) logo on the pressure plate, so I figure it must have been changed at least once. It is literally paper thin though. The face on the pressure plate is completely stuffed. The flywheel is pretty bad too so I pulled it off so I can get it resurfaced and possibly lightened.

clutch:

Image


pressure plate:

Image

The score marks in the pressure plate are pretty brutual.


Same for the flywheel:

Image


I numbered the bolts as well so that it all goes back together the same way.

Image


Flywheel off, hello leaking main seal. Reason why the starter motor nose was covered with gunk and that there is black gunk all inside the bellhousing on the 4spd etc.

Image

Philip, I take it that VC's spit rear main seals quite often? Ever changed one in situ?

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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 wagon. Upgrades Round 1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:26 pm
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
So some problems I've run into:

- wrong guide bolts where put into the flywheel. Fixed this. (they were the wrong way around)
- lined up clutch and pressure plate using a tool I found amongst my grandfather's old tools. Win.
- clutch release bearing, clutch fork, clutch release bearing spring are different between my 929 gearbox and the 626 gearbox.

One gearbox had the clutch release bearing and it looked/felt ok, so I've clipped it onto the fork of the gearbox I am using. No problem. I re-greased the splines on the input shaft and the shaft where the clutch release bearing will slide.
However, because the 929 box had a clutch release spring, I was thinking, "why doesn't the 626 box have one?". I think they have (from looking at a diagram from a fellow JNC'er (thanks Phil!), I just have to work out how/where it goes and where to get one.

It looks like I am also missing a spring for the fork itself - I think - but I'm yet to figure out exactly where it went. I have some Mazda springs lying around which I think will fit, I just need to organise it all in my head and then get to work.

Has anyone got a 626 workshop manual handy in pdf form?

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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 wagon. Upgrades Round 1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:23 pm 
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Location: Ballarat
Hey Geoff,
What sections of the 626 manual do you need? I can scan and post on here
or email to you. Your call. :D


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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 wagon. Upgrades Round 1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:53 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:37 am
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Location: Ballarat
This sorta what you're after?

From Gregorys 626 Manual:
Image

From Mazda 626 manual:
Image Image

Image Image

Image Image


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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 wagon. Upgrades Round 1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:26 pm
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perfect! thanks Phil! :tu:

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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 wagon. Upgrades Round 1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:35 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:26 pm
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Interesting. it all just clicked into place about springs and bearings etc. I think I've just worked it out in my head. hopefully I can bolt and swap stuff across tonight. :tu:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:33 pm 
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So the problem I have was that the clutch release bearing is different between the two boxes and that the pressure plate is different in a MA and VC. I suspect that they would be very close, and would even bolt to each others flywheels, but I'll be using the 929 gearbox bearing with the 626 gearbox on the 929 clutch fork.

After looking and scratching my head, I also worked out how the spring holds the bearing onto the clutch fork. I also got under a few cars etc at wreckers yards and 626's don't have a spring to hold the bearing on, the bearing is just held in place by tabs.


929 bearing with spring and fork

Image


Image



I got warned that 626 forks vary, but you can see that my 929 fork and the 626 fork are nearly the same. There is also no provision on the clutch slave cylinder for a return spring, as shown in a few mazda manuals. I also checked under a bravo with the same 5spd box, no return spring either. *sigh of relief* The 626 fork is a lot shorter at the slave cylinder end.

Image


929 manual showing a spring, but my car never had it.

Image


626 bearing just slides on.

Image


The 626 bearing would probably work fine, but I figure I have the new bearing that came with the kit and technically it is the right one for the pressure plate, so I should use it. I just have to get the old bearing pressed off and the new one pressed on.

Image


Difference between the two.

Image



I also need to have a look at a wiring schematic. the 626 has a red and yellow wire coming off the reverse switch with bullet connectors

Image


While the 929 has spade connectors and a red/orange wire and a green/yellow wire (earth?)

Image


I'm taking Friday off to try and finish this off! :x

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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 wagon. Upgrades Round 1
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:52 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:09 pm
Posts: 569
Location: Australia
There is no earth for the reverse switch. You will see 12V on one side and 0V on the other. When the reverse switch is activated 12V will flow from one terminal to the other. That is how the other rotary gearboxes work. I'd imagine your one will be no different.

When I tested my reverse lamps last update I jumpered between the 2 terminals to simulate the reverse switch until I complete the wiring to the gearbox. Make sense, the switch completes the 12V circuit ?

So, no the green wire will carry 12V when switch is in the on position. Colour coding looks the same as Rx3.


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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 wagon. Upgrades Round 1
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:08 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:37 am
Posts: 164
Location: Ballarat
Hmmmm, from your pics and info collection:
1. Is the position for the clutch slave push rod the same for both forks?

2. Are both the throw-out bearings the same thickness - the 626 bearing looks thicker?
If the 626 bearing is thicker, would that then take the 929 retaining spring out of the equation.
Maybe the spring is just a way to give the old bearing positive location to the fork? Also, maybe
the missing fork return spring was to give the clutch pedal, feel?

3. From memory, the only difference between VC & MA clutches was the overall diameter
and possibly friction plate thickness, but i'll double check that tonight.


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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 wagon. Upgrades Round 1
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:26 pm
Posts: 743
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Gypsy wrote:
There is no earth for the reverse switch. You will see 12V on one side and 0V on the other. When the reverse switch is activated 12V will flow from one terminal to the other. That is how the other rotary gearboxes work. I'd imagine your one will be no different.

When I tested my reverse lamps last update I jumpered between the 2 terminals to simulate the reverse switch until I complete the wiring to the gearbox. Make sense, the switch completes the 12V circuit ?

So, no the green wire will carry 12V when switch is in the on position. Colour coding looks the same as Rx3.


Ah. That makes sense. I thought that it was a switch with one colour denoting a path in and the other colour denoting a path out, with the gearbox earthed or something like that.

Thanks Gypsy.


philip wrote:
Hmmmm, from your pics and info collection:
1. Is the position for the clutch slave push rod the same for both forks?

2. Are both the throw-out bearings the same thickness - the 626 bearing looks thicker?
If the 626 bearing is thicker, would that then take the 929 retaining spring out of the equation.
Maybe the spring is just a way to give the old bearing positive location to the fork? Also, maybe
the missing fork return spring was to give the clutch pedal, feel?

3. From memory, the only difference between VC & MA clutches was the overall diameter
and possibly friction plate thickness, but i'll double check that tonight.


Phil:

1. Yep. They are identical, the only difference is that there is more "meat" past the dimple for the clutch slave piston on the 929 fork.
Spac told me to be careful as apparently there is an early 626 clutch fork and a later clutch fork, but the ones I have are the same.

2. Yes, the 626 bearing is a lot thicker. One of the guys at work said to use the larger bearing as it would make clutch operation easier, but I don't want to damage the pressure plate with the wrong bearing. I think that the 626 bearing locator tabs are a lot more elegant and easier, but the spring holds the 929 bearing on to the fork a lot tighter.
Hmmmm, hadn't thought about the missing fork spring, interesting that the replacement clutch slave cylinder doesn't have the ring cast into it to mount the fork spring, the old one didn't either which makes me think that the old clutch slave was a replacement too.
I noticed that the old clutch slave didn't have an adjustable piston/rod, neither did the new one that I bought. However the 929 manual clearly shows how to adjust it....

3. In the Exedy book the clutches are the same size, same part number, but the pressure plate is different. Not sure why.

I nearly bought a complete MA and 5spd on the weekend but the wrecker wanted 250 for the gearbox alone so I passed.

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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 wagon. Upgrades Round 1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:44 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:37 am
Posts: 164
Location: Ballarat
Maybe dumb question/observation, I've been going through my manuals,
does the 929 have an interior clutch pedal return spring? I know it is standard in a 626.

In my old Gregorys Capella manual, it shows an exterior clutch slave return spring like
your one, but doesn't give you any shots of the pedal box to show whether or not there
is an interior clutch pedal return spring as well.


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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 wagon. Upgrades Round 1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:46 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:26 pm
Posts: 743
Location: Melbourne, Australia
I'll have a look tonight, I've got a spare manual pedal box lying on the floor next to the car so that will be easy! :)


Hmmmm, time to find someone with a capella!

I might have a look on the 1300 too. Im sure there was no spring on the clutch fork on the s4 '7 turbo box. Pretty sure there wasn't one on the factory 4spd either.

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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 wagon. Upgrades Round 1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:15 am 

Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:03 am
Posts: 32
Location: Adalaide, Australia
929 had a pedal box return spring, the rx4 pedal box had a spring assist (this was to make the pedal feel stiff on the first 1/3 of travel and then the spring released and pedal goes to the floor) i think this was the same in all Mazda range from rotary to piston equivalent

the spring on the 929/rx4 clutch slaves were only used on the early model up to 7-74 as the push rod adjustable as stated, the later stuff had no spring and a solid rod i have a updated genuine manual with supplements which states this. i can post if i find it and scan it


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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 wagon. Upgrades Round 1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:21 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:26 pm
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
^ makes sense! The green car is an early '74 build (Feb I think) and the yellow car which donated the driveline was a later '74 car, but I have a very early '74 manual.

The pedal box will be 929, so will my spare one.


I pressed off the old bearing yesterday from the cast 929 bearing holder and pressed on the new one and noticed 2 things.

- maybe the bearing is on the wrong way around

- the 929 fork does indeed have a hole for a fork spring. Whooops!


The reason I think the bearing may be the wrong way around is that the ridge on the "front" of the bearing presses up against the pressure plate fingers, but only on the small ridge surface. If I had of put the bearing around with the smooth "back" facing the pressure plate, then there would have been more bearing surface pressing on the pressure plate. I only copied how the old bearing was installed, but I'm not sure it's the right way around. I'm going to see if the 929 manual has a clear shot of it.


how the old bearing was installed:

Image

new bearing installed:

Image

but maybe this face (the "back" of the bearing) should have faced the pressure plate instead to give the bearing more surface contact with the pressure plate fingers....?

Image


I've also got to see where the little tab that's cast on the bearing older goes. Does it hold against the fork or does it point up? I think it should be the opposite way to the picture so that it rests against the clutch fork.

Image


Hole in the clutch fork for a spring.

Image



Either way, I am going to try and get the gearbox in and see how it goes today. Starting to get a bit frustrated. :lol:
It was probably good thing that I pulled the box out anyway, the clutch release bearing sounded very tired in the workshop yesterday, when we pressed it off there were some nasty score marks on the cast iron holder. Hopefully the new bearing and pressure plate makes the clutch nice and smooth.

Image


(if it all fails, I'm going to order a 626 pressure plate and just use the 626 fork and bearing!)

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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 wagon. Upgrades Round 1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:37 am
Posts: 164
Location: Ballarat
Geoff,
Round face of bearing to the pressure plate. Hopefully my quick diagram explains why?
Bearing flat face will not contact the diaphragm fingers correctly.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 wagon. Upgrades Round 1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:34 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:26 pm
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
Ah ha! lightbulb moment. Thanks Phil!

Interesting, I went and rummaged through some old Scientific Publications (I rate them highly) 1300 manuals and it showed the bearing the same way that I had it, plus it showed how to install the clip etc. When I looked through the RX-4 part of the Mazda workshop manual, I swear it shows it with the bearing presenting the flat face to the pressure plate. Hmmmm.

Well I've sort of had some success. much heaving, swearing, head scratching etc. Box just would not slide on the last half inch or so. So I gradually tightened it home using two long bolts. Whether this has stuffed the whole shebang will remain to be seen.
For some reason the two holes at the bottom of the transmission don't line up with the two threaded holes on the back of the block. All the other bolt holes line up perfectly. I'm about to back off all the bolts slightly and then see if I can rotate the gearbox case slightly to get them to line up.

I also let my frustration with the gearbox settle for a bit by notching the gearbox crossmember. Hopefully I've measured everything up by eye enough that it will work AND I'll be able to fit it without hitting the exhaust.

When I first tried to put the transmission in last week (week before even?) I thought that I would have to use the notch in the trans tunnel that Ian cut for the RX-4 four speed box, but the 5spd gearshifter housing has poked up exactly where the 4spd one was. Noice.

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 Post subject: Re: 1974 RX-4/929 wagon. Upgrades Round 1
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:26 pm
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
So problems so far:

three holes in the gearbox are slightly out of alignment. No matter how much I tried to wiggle/rotate/move the gearbox they would just not line up with the holes in the block.

I notched the gearbox crossmember as much as I could (the holes for the chassis need to be moved towards the front of the car, holes for the gearbox rubber mount need to be slotted towards the back of the car). I've taken out as much material as I can and it's still not enough. Aaron has got one solution (cut and weld the crossmember with some lengthening), I've got another idea to try first. If all else fails I'll fabricate one at work.


Good news though:

tailshaft from aaron looks like it's going to fit perfectly.

speedo cable is the right length

gearbox cross member doesn't hit exhaust

reverse switch doesn't hit on tunnel

clutch fork/clutch slave lined up nicely. (I swapped over the threaded bolts from the 929 box to the 626 bolts (they're bolts with no head and a space in the middle. Not sure that they are long enough so I'm having a look through my boxes of bolts to find some more suitable ones).

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