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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:37 pm 

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toyotageek wrote:

ChokudoriDR30, I'm curious, can you read / write Russian? I tried deciphering the Russian forum with Google language with mixed results :roll: Some stuff came out good, but there always seems to be the odd word or two :lol:


I can indeed... I've pulled out all the important morsels. I'll be watching the Russian thread and will report any new findings immediately :). If you have anything you need translated on that page, point me to it and I'll do it :).

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:56 pm 
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Some one should Boso it!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:23 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:05 am 
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Ok here's my analysis. Please bear with me...

Image
In this picture we can clearly see that the Airflow has a more tapered rear end whereas
the AA's roof takes a more steep decline to the rear bumper.


Image
When we take a closer look at the d-pillar, this becomes very apparent. Also, note that the rain
gutter is angled downward at a sharper angle on the AA, whereas on the Airflow, it follows
the curve of the rear quarter window very closely. The shots of the Russian car were both
taken at slight angles, so it's hard to do a direct comparison, but it seems clear to me that
it is a closer match to the AA than the Airflow.

Image
Looking from the front 3/4 angle, the AA's more abrupt rear end becomes more obvious.
Here, the AA again seems like the closer match.

Image
Taking a closer look at the windshield...if you direct your attention to the red circles, you can
see that the Airflow has a kink on the roof, right above the windshield, which both the AA
and the mystery Russian car lack.
Looking at the green marks, you can see that the character line right in front of the door
hinge is a closer match to the AA than the Airflow as well.
Also note that the AA has a completely flat front windshield whereas the Airflow has a 2-piece
windshield that is angled backwards in a more aerodynamic fashion. The Russian car's
windshield is likely a replacement which could explain it's flushness as opposed to the AA's
inset windshield.

Image
Here is a better shot of the Airflow's front windshield. It is apparent that one would not be
able to replace it with a flat piece of glass, or even two pieces that occupy the same plane.

Image
Looking at the rear 3/4 angle of the cars, you can see that the rear window of the Airflow is slightly
bean-shaped and droops downward, whereas the other two cars have very rectangular
rear windows (with rounded corners)

Image
Here you can see that the AA and mystery Russian cars are almost interchangeable. Notice
the size/angle and spacing of each window as well as their proportions to each other.
This is a near perfect match.

Image
One area that has me mystified is the base of the a-pillar. The AA has a crease that runs up
the a-pillar that both other cars lack. Although the Airflow lacks this crease, it is still not a perfect
match of the mystery Russian car. One possible explanation is that when the hood of the
Russian car was replaced, perhaps some sort of filler was used to blend it to the a-pillar,
thereby covering up this crease.


Image
And let's not forget the side strakes. Using photoshop to measure out the pixel width of
each strake from each picture, I found the ratios to be very close. The measurements
in pixels from longest strake to shortest strake were:
AA - 50 / 34 / 20
Russian car - 344 / 242 / 145

The ratios of the strake measurements were:
Image

I'm no statistician, but those seem pretty close to me.


So is this definitive proof? Although there is strong evidence pointing towards this being a
genuine AA, many cars of the era were very similarly designed. This could also be a Russian
copy-cat of the Toyoda AA, so who knows. Many shenanigans could be in play here. The only
way to find out for sure is for someone to go to Russia and examine the car in person.
If you'd like to sponsor me, make checks payable to "Daniel Hsu" You can find our address
at the beginning of any issue of JNC. =D

BTW, anyone know where I can get one of these? Toyotageek, I'm lookin at you! =P
Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:52 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:36 am
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Just need to do this so I can post some pictures and links.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:53 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:36 am
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Location: Detroit
I know this is not a Toyota but it illustrates what happens to old cars in Eastern Europe. They do all kinds of carzy stuff to keep them on the road. Hell, it saves some pretty important vehicles too.

The AA is a pretty cool find and will hopefully get the love it deserves.


Take a look at this!
Image

Image

It is vw38 car #6. One of the first batches of KDF prototypes. It was found in Lithunaia.

Image

Read 70+ pages on it's discovery and the start of it's restoration. It is owned by the Grundmanns and they are kicking ass on it's restoration!


Last edited by toolbox on Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:30 pm 
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dan wrote:
Ok here's my analysis. Please bear with me...


Dan, I gotta say thanks for taking the time to put all these photos together and making these very significant comparisons. It makes it a lot easier than flipping back and forth between pictures like I have been doing. :lol: I'm no expert when it come to Toyotas and I'm not even very good at discussing comparative features, but you've done what I've been thinking. Thank you for that! One thing I'd like to comment on for everyone to consider, when making comparisons, it's best done using features like what Dan has done. Wipers, steering, glass - that can all be changed, swapped, replaced over the years. (Just imagine if a future archaeologist found the Mooneyes Toyota Crown with a GM ZZ3 V8 engine, and no other documention of the cars exists - what would that archaeolgist conclude?)

There are a few other features that seem to speak Toyota, some features don't. Some of the undercarriage features seem similar, but others do not. Location of inside door handle and window crank seem to be similar with the AA (not sure about the Airflow).

More detailed photos of the cars interior, undercarriage, and certain exterior features would help a lot - but checking the Russian site, the Russian owner seems to have been quiet lately...

I'm glad to see that this has drawn such interest, and now maybe even more since it made an appearance in the blog.

dan wrote:
BTW, anyone know where I can get one of these? Toyotageek, I'm lookin at you! =P
Image


No, and if you find one, make sure to get one for me too! :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:34 pm 
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Drew_TSi_Si_STi wrote:
^ Very good points Sir. My only thing to add is that the Museum Replica Toyota AA; is just that, a replica. It could have subtle differences that aren't on a genuine AA. 70+ since this car was produced. They may not have gotten the tooling for the body panels exactly as they where in 1936.


While the tooling may not have been original, Toyota worked off of original blueprints. The project was not a half-hearted one, and I'm sure the replicas are as close to original as any car could be - the only difference being was 50 years.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:24 pm 
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I'm fairly confident that this is NOT an Airflow.

There are so many similarities between this car and the AA that I'm ready to conclude that it is either:
1 - the real deal, an effing AA!!!
2 - some copy-cat of the AA, not simply a car w/ similar design features, but one that was specifically
made to be a copy of the AA

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:54 pm 
Stationwagonguy wrote:
Perhaps I need a little history lesson on the AA. I'm reading that Toyota couldn't find a single one left in existence and built a replica.

Correct, in fact it has built a number of replicas.
Remember raw materials were scarece in Japan at the time these cars were built and moreso during the war years. Most things made from metal if not required were recycled into military equipment.

Stationwagonguy wrote:
]If that is the case, then the black car's details may not be 100% accurate anyways.

The replicas were built using the original blueprints with guidance from the people who originally designed and built them, they are 99.9% accurate reproductions.

Stationwagonguy wrote:
And if that is the case... are the AB Phaetons I've seen pictures of real or no?

The AB Phaetons owned by TMC are genuine restored cars.

Stationwagonguy wrote:
And are all the AAs I've seen pictures of mere replicas?

Depends if you've seen older pictures from when the cars were being made and marketed in Japan. The cars displayed at the Toyota Museum and Heritage Centres are replicas.

Stationwagonguy wrote:
Is that blue AC legit or is it a replica too?

I believe it's a reproduction built using some original parts.

Stationwagonguy wrote:
Perhaps the split windscreen is a sign that maybe it's an AC?

However, on the other hand, the lack of a split backlight window can be considered a sign that it is not.

The backlight window is also not as rounded at the ends as the AA and the quarter glass in the rear doors was not a feature of the AA or AC models.

The Windscreen does at least look like it may have been retro fitted to this body. Looking at it I am thinking Volvo. However looking at the glasshouse I'm thinking Nash.

The three spears/vents in the front panels were not unique to Toyota and in combination with the front fender mounting flange it could be a French Peugeot from the mid thirties which also bear some amazing similarities to the first Toyotas, and fautures split windscreens. The European cars also featured independent front suspension as shown in the images of this car. The Toyotas had rigid axles and semi eliptic springs front and rear.

Location of door hinges was pretty common right across the industry, so that's not realy a defining factor. On the other hand, the door handles on the car pictured appear to be nothing like those of the Toyota product and more like the American Nash.

Look closely at the lower door edges. Note the curve at the front of the front doors. Now look at the profile shot of AA and see how it is completely different. Also that the Toyota doors have square coner where they meet at the bottom and on the Russian car the doors are rounded at this point.

Consider also the form of the inner rear wheelhousings. The Toyota fenders finished before the end of the body and would definitely not have had inner wheelhousings shaped like this. These suggest to me that this body once had a hump on the back as did many US cars of the period, including the Nash hat keeps coming into my mind when viewing the glasshouse.


Last edited by Hot Rodder on Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Other ideas
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:20 pm 
Does anyone know what Toyoda's prototype A1 looked like? Could this be a prototype?

Yeah, keep in mind these AAs we are looking at are not original AAs. The original creators may not have remembered much that wasn't documented, as it had been almost 30 years.

For Toyota to not find a car in Russia in the 80s doesn't surprise me. Keep in mind they didn't have the resources we do now, and it was during the Cold War.


Last edited by 69dime on Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:31 pm 
toyotageek wrote:
Compare...

Not exactly the same, but close.

Not even close.

The transmission crossmember is too far forward, and what appear to be cross braces are angled backwards, whereas on the Toyota frame it's s straight beam. Towards the rear the cross braces rivited indicating originality are non existant on the Toyota Chassis


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 Post subject: Re: Other ideas
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:38 pm 
69dime wrote:
Does anyone know what Toyoda's prototype A1 looked like?

Yes, it looks like the one in the body building display at the Toyota Heritage Centre in Nagoya.

69dime wrote:
]Could this be a prototype?

If it is, then the story becomes bigger and the thing is priceless. Somehow I sincerely doubt that to be the case.

[quote"69dime"]It kind of looks like an AE hood to me, and the rusty one on the Russian forum looks like an AE from the back.[/quote]
The hood on the car here look like it may have come from a Volvo. Guess I'll have to find the Rusdsian forum and check out the extra pics.

69dime wrote:
Yeah, keep in mind these AAs we are looking at are not original AAs. The original creators may not have remembered much that wasn't documented, as it had been almost 30 years.

They used original blueprints to create the replicas and comparing those cars to photographs of the originals taken back in the day, there's is no detail that stands out as being wrong or different between the replicas and the originals.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:58 pm 
dan wrote:
Image
In this picture we can clearly see that the Airflow has a more tapered rear end whereas
the AA's roof takes a more steep decline to the rear bumper.

What the picture doesn't show is that the Chrysler is a significanly larger car than the Toyota.

dan wrote:
Image
When we take a closer look at the d-pillar, this becomes very apparent. Also, note that the rain
gutter is angled downward at a sharper angle on the AA, whereas on the Airflow, it follows
the curve of the rear quarter window very closely. The shots of the Russian car were both
taken at slight angles, so it's hard to do a direct comparison, but it seems clear to me that
it is a closer match to the AA than the Airflow.

Agree, however the lower edge of the quarter glass on the Russian car doesn't appear to follow the same curvature as the Toyota and it seems to be mounted in a rubber seal, not the metal frame of the Toyota.

dan wrote:
Image
Looking from the front 3/4 angle, the AA's more abrupt rear end becomes more obvious.
Here, the AA again seems like the closer match.

Closer but not perfect and I remain skeptical as to why the rear body section has been removed.

Image
Taking a closer look at the windshield...if you direct your attention to the red circles, you can
see that the Airflow has a kink on the roof, right above the windshield, which both the AA
and the mystery Russian car lack.
Looking at the green marks, you can see that the character line right in front of the door
hinge is a closer match to the AA than the Airflow as well.
Also note that the AA has a completely flat front windshield whereas the Airflow has a 2-piece
windshield that is angled backwards in a more aerodynamic fashion. The Russian car's
windshield is likely a replacement which could explain it's flushness as opposed to the AA's
inset windshield.[/quote]
I'd agree the windscreen is not original, however the fit at the A pillars just doesn't seem to match the Toyota and it would appear to have had a great deal of work done there to make it appear 'factory' yet the same effort doesn't seem to have extended to the hood and other changes.

dan wrote:
Image
Looking at the rear 3/4 angle of the cars, you can see that the rear window of the Airflow is slightly
bean-shaped and droops downward, whereas the other two cars have very rectangular
rear windows (with rounded corners)

However, on the Toyota replicas, and original photographs, the ends of the back window on the AA window are more rounded than this car.

Image
Here you can see that the AA and mystery Russian cars are almost interchangeable. Notice
the size/angle and spacing of each window as well as their proportions to each other.
This is a near perfect match.[/quote]
Near perfect? Is that really good enough?

dan wrote:
The ratios of the strake measurements were:
Image

I'm no statistician, but those seem pretty close to me.


So is this definitive proof?

Pretty close isn't good enough for my money.

This '36 LaFayette could be made to look pretty close with very little work.

Image

dan wrote:
Although there is strong evidence pointing towards this being a genuine AA, many cars of the era were very similarly designed. This could also be a Russian copy-cat of the Toyoda AA, so who knows. Many shenanigans could be in play here.

And nobody in Russia has ever tried to make a bbuck by hoodwinking anybody outside of Russia. ;)

Quote:
The only way to find out for sure is for someone to go to Russia and examine the car in person.

They would need to have copies the original Toyota blueprints & dimensions etc/ Plus some clear images of the original Toyotas.

Quote:
BTW, anyone know where I can get one of these? Toyotageek, I'm lookin at you! =P
Image

I saw them on sale in a toy shop in Nagoya a few years back.


Last edited by Hot Rodder on Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:33 pm 
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so any development from Toyota?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:47 pm 
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Hot Rodder wrote:
Near perfect? Is that really good enough?

Keep in mind that these two photographs were taken at slightly different angles and heights. I think it's about as good as one can hope for without precise, matching photographs.

Hot Rodder wrote:
Pretty close isn't good enough for my money.

These measurements were taken crudely by measuring pixels in photoshop. One pixel off would throw the ratios off in the other direction, so again, I think this is as good as can be hoped for without precise measurements.

Also, I know the Peugeot you're talking about, the 402. It's got similar styling cues, but it is clearly not a match for this car. It's even further off than the Airflow.

The Nash you mention is a closer match than the Airflow, but not as close as the AA. The rear window is again somewhat bean-shaped, and the rear quarter windows are too large on the Nash. Also, there is no triangular character line in front of the front door hinge.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:31 pm 
SharmCos wrote:
blackhole wrote:
i think this car could be of some value if sold right away to some toyota collector either to be restored as possible or as the remains of the last original AA


If it was me I'd sell to Toyota Japan. They would pay millions for it huh?

Considering the number of replicas they have built and how incomplete it is, it's probably not something Toyota would have much interest in.

However, I think I may be in a position to follow up on that.

The interior image on the Russian website has piqued my interest even more as the door handle and window crank appear to be axactly as they are on the Toyota AA. On the other hand the window frame appears too thin and the lack of a correct dash panel makes it hard to confirm
anything.

Image

Image

Strangely interesting is that the vents appear open in this interior shot yet the images I have of the body skeleton shows an inner panel behind the vents, suggesting their purpose was to allow hot air to exit the engine compartment and not bring cool oustide air into the passenger compartment. Just another curiousity of this vehicle?

And back to the removed rear body section...

Image

Image

Whilst there are similarities, I'm still not convinced they are the same under the skin. The inner wheelhousing appears much deeper and a different shape on the Russian car.


Last edited by Hot Rodder on Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:37 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:59 am
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Location: Australia, Vic
All i can say is WOW!

I'm pretty satisfied that this is a AA with alot of modifications to keep it on the road.
Even the window winders/pulls are in the same locations


Can't wait to see more updates


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:41 pm 
toyotageek wrote:
Lukas wrote:
Does Toyota already know about this?

I'm working on it.

I'll have a chat with a couple of people I know and see where it takes us.

If it is the genuine article, it has much potential.........

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:47 pm 
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Hot Rodder wrote:
toyotageek wrote:
Lukas wrote:
Does Toyota already know about this?

I'm working on it.

I'll have a chat with a couple of people I know and see where it takes us.

If it is the genuine article, it has much potential.........

Image

Image

Image


WHOA, where did you get that model. I would like to know where I could get one.

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