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 Post subject: Hi - New member with afew KGC10 Q's
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:07 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:47 pm
Posts: 43
Location: South West, UK
Hi there. I've just joined up. Currently dont have any J-Tin. I do have 'J' (1999 Nissan 200sx S14a UK Spec) and 'Tin' (1982 Mk1 XR2 Ford Fiesta) but eventually I hope to have one car combining both! lol

Always loved the KPGC10 Skyline but cant afford/cant justify the price tag some of them have. On the other hand I dont mind a 'clone' based on a KGC10 GT/ GTX etc. The prices are (sometimes) abit less but each car is individual and it depends on your budget.

I am seriously beginning to think I may be able to afford one of these but wanted to join the forum and ask afew questions to help me in the right direction before I save up and spend all my hard earned cash on something wrong or I dont actually like!

So as for Skylines, what are te differences between a cloned up one and an actual GTR (2dr coupe). Also diferences between them in standard form. I am aware of engine changes (obv. power outputs) and some exterior styling but not anything in great detail. Some of them come in at a fraction of the GTR prices but I have noticed afew poor examples.

Any info would be great!

Thanks v.much!
Conor.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:12 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:12 am
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Location: Malaysia
Welcome to JNC.

Did they sell C10 Skyline in the UK back then?


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 Post subject: Re: Hi - New member with afew KGC10 Q's
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:41 am 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
Con2K wrote:
Always loved the KPGC10 Skyline but cant afford/cant justify the price tag some of them have. On the other hand I dont mind a 'clone' based on a KGC10 GT/ GTX etc. The prices are (sometimes) abit less but each car is individual and it depends on your budget.

Clones are a lot cheaper. A KPGC10 starts at about Y6mil and go up to Y15mil. The clones would start in the low teens and on average are about Y2.5mil...and the most expensive clones would be about Y5mil.

So the best of the clones stop just as the entry level GTRs start. We have a great thread here, where we have a JNCer stationed in Japan, and shopping for a KGC10.

But a good place to start if you'd like to get a feel for the prices is goo-net. It's a website for cars on sale in Japan (dealer cars only though). It's in English, and just search for Skylines pre-1980, sort them by date and you'll find dozens of KGC10 for sale.

Con2K wrote:
So as for Skylines, what are te differences between a cloned up one and an actual GTR (2dr coupe). Also diferences between them in standard form. I am aware of engine changes (obv. power outputs) and some exterior styling but not anything in great detail. Some of them come in at a fraction of the GTR prices but I have noticed afew poor examples.

Hmm...where do you start, There are tons of differences between the 2000GTR and the cooking models. The most obvious difference is under the bonnet, the 2000GTR has a bespoke 24valve, twin cam six that puts out 160hp. The next most powerful cooking model is the 2000GT-X, which is a 2.0L six, same L-series family of engines as found in the 240Z. 120hp. However most clones have been up-engined to a later L-series, and they go up to 2.8L (or 3.1L when stroked). Power output depends on the depths of your wallet :)

Bodywise, the 2000GTR has rear flared arches, lots of trim differences and a more spartan interior (no carpet, but vinyl covering the floors, etc). Suspension wise the shocks and springs are different, it has a rear swaybar and a bigger diff with LSD.

2000GTR:
Image

2000GT:
Image
2000GTR also has a 100L fuel tank (vs 50L) and lots of other things besides. So I'd say that the difference between a 2000GTR and a cooking model is about as great as the differences between the GTR and the GTS in the modern R32-34 Skylines.

So to make a true replica of a GTR out of a cooking model, there would be way too many things to change (and lots of those things aren't available anyway).

But most clones are quite modified and they are very tuneable with lots of aftermarket gear available. So you could certainly make a clone go as hard or harder than the real thing. I'd say that the point of most clones is not to make a true replica of the GTR but rather to have a car that just looks like the real thing.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:33 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:47 pm
Posts: 43
Location: South West, UK
SharmCos - Hi, thanks, unfortunately as far as I am aware, the C10 skylines weren't available in the UK, I didnt think they were available outside Japan tbh but I must admit its early days for me with regards to facts anf figures about these cars in particular. I am sure someone would clear it up though.

Kev - I have been reading your thread with great interest! (admittedly only half way through atm). I see now there are alot of obvious differences from the word go. As you say, I am not wanting a replica as such, more of a skyline that shape with what I think is appealing, which, to me, is the GTR spec model. I dont want the fastest, or rarest, or best, but I do want a car I can enjoy and feel happy with rather than one that never quite gets there or is always getting sumthing added to it to be that bit closer to a goal I may never reach. To me, the top choice is the looks, to have all the right bits in the right place. In theory you can add power all day long from any engine but the original look of the car is not something that is as easy to create in your garage at home. (well for me anyway).

It seems that its a better option to buy an GTR Clone rather than hunt for an original GT/GTX and do it yourself. being out of the country of origin and not speaking the language would make parts sourcing very difficult and probably alot more expensive in the long run having them shipped etc. I dont mind getting my hands dirty with an engine, electrics, bodywork, paint etc, but its better to have the original parts there to begin with that may need tarting up or repairing rather than sourcing them in the 1st place.


Thankyou for the website to search through cars. I do find it hard to get a general idea as export specific sites prices seem to vary wildly and I dont yet know what is cheap because its a lemon, a bargain, or a rip off.

Kev, I must ask, prior to purchasing your car did you drive one, or even see one in the flesh? I must admit it is a concern to me spending out that sort of money on a car you havent seen (which is the chance you take on an iport) but more so even seeing another one and just sietting inside to get a feel for things. TBH nothing can change your mind if you want one badly enough but do you know where I'm coming from?

I think that may be a difficult thing for me to do. I've not been aware of any GTR 2dr coupe's or clones in the UK and the only one I do know of is sat on a driveway being unused and unloved. I've only ever seen a pic of it and no nothing about it, or its owner.

Sorry for my rambling, I have limited time during work to respond so making the most of it!

Many Thanks.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:03 am 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
Con2K wrote:
SharmCos - Hi, thanks, unfortunately as far as I am aware, the C10 skylines weren't available in the UK, I didnt think they were available outside Japan tbh but I must admit its early days for me with regards to facts anf figures about these cars in particular. I am sure someone would clear it up though.

I'm not 100% sure but I think there were no RHD exports. There seems to be a handful of 2400GT LHD sedans sold in some European markets but I think the numbers were only in the hundreds.

Con2K wrote:
It seems that its a better option to buy an GTR Clone rather than hunt for an original GT/GTX and do it yourself. being out of the country of origin and not speaking the language would make parts sourcing very difficult and probably alot more expensive in the long run having them shipped etc. I dont mind getting my hands dirty with an engine, electrics, bodywork, paint etc, but its better to have the original parts there to begin with that may need tarting up or repairing rather than sourcing them in the 1st place.

I think that's a sensible approach. If you spend a bit of time looking over what's on sale at goo-net, you'll notice that the great majority of C10 coupes are already converted to GTR-look. There are relatively few stock C10 coupes left, and I'd say that if you did find a little-old-lady example that was in great solid nick, it would be a shame to cut it up, when there are so many converted clones to choose from. Hence your chances of finding a good clone are far greater, due to the greater numbers of them.

Surprisingly a lot of restoration parts are available for these things, but you're right, to buy every little doodad and spoiler from Japan as you need them will cost a fortune.

Con2K wrote:
Kev, I must ask, prior to purchasing your car did you drive one, or even see one in the flesh? I must admit it is a concern to me spending out that sort of money on a car you havent seen (which is the chance you take on an iport) but more so even seeing another one and just sietting inside to get a feel for things. TBH nothing can change your mind if you want one badly enough but do you know where I'm coming from?

By the time I'd decided to buy one, I knew I was in love with the way they look. I'd seen Hakos in Japan before, and there are a few in Sydney, so I'd sat in one (a non-runner though) before I bought mine. But I'm quite familiar with the older Zeds, so I had a reasonably good idea of how they'd drive.

I'd say that there's only a very slim chance that you'll be disapponted with the way they look in the flesh (most ppl think it looks much better in the flesh than in pictures). And if you like the way a 1st gen Zed drives, then a Hako is quite similar. I reckon a Hako has vaguer steering and you don't sit over the back axle like you do in a Zed, but apart from that, they're quite similar to drive.

If you don't like old cars with heavy pedals and steering, that get hot in the summer, then you're not going to like it. But speaking for myself, once I got mine on the road, I wasn't disappointed. It's a great, fun car to drive, heaps of grunt and a real muscle car character. And it's got great tuning potential and you can get these things humming along quite fast. And with a set of Webers, they make a terrific noise :)

Con2K wrote:
I think that may be a difficult thing for me to do. I've not been aware of any GTR 2dr coupe's or clones in the UK and the only one I do know of is sat on a driveway being unused and unloved. I've only ever seen a pic of it and no nothing about it, or its owner.

Well there is a real 2000GTR in the UK and it's owned by HS30-H on this forum. It's not a roadcar though, but in historic racer trim.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:02 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:47 pm
Posts: 43
Location: South West, UK
Kev - thanks v.much for the replies! Really do appreciate it!

Ah yes, a GTR in the UK, the blue and white one? A gorgeous example but obviously not in standard guise. Still, would be good to see it at a show or similar, get a real idea of what it looks like. Summer will be here soon and who knows what will come out of the woodwork for a sunny day at a jap/classic show!

I see what you mean about that website, some seriously good deals to be found if searched well. Will continue to look deeper.

I will admit i'm not in a position to go ahead and get one straight away, but realisically should be able to afford one in afew years. This isn't a pipe dream. My concern with the time I spend saving/looking is will the prices continue to climb? I havent really looked up values in the past so I am unaware of what people have been paying and if it is indeed increasing. I get the feeling its much like the VW Split screen campervan scene. They used to be abit cheaper but then something changed and everyone was after them. some go cheap, some go for silly money, some aren't worth the asking price and some should be double. It's learning enough about each one, the market and making sure you end up with the right vehicle. It's not that I would have plans to sell it on in the future (but who knows what life throws at us) but to have a car that could potentially be an investment (within reason and excluding what mods you throw at it) would be a comforting feeling.

I have plans to take a holiday to japan next year. I'd be interested in finding out as much info as possible and seeing if it was worth me actually having a closer look at some of the cars available. It's always a difficult thing being in a country where you know nobody and dont speak the language but trying to look for something very specific would be alot more difficult but i'm sure worth it. Even if I didnt come away with a car, if I came away with a much better understanding of what was available and at what price thats half the battle and a huge amount of doubt off my mind.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:51 pm 
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Con2K wrote:
Ah yes, a GTR in the UK, the blue and white one?

That's the one! I think its last public outing was the Goodwood Revival.

Con2K wrote:
I see what you mean about that website, some seriously good deals to be found if searched well. Will continue to look deeper.

Yes, but make sure you look closely though! For example, this one's a nice, tidy looking, nice ride height on black watanabes and rather cheap: LINK

...but look at all those HUGE rust holes underneath! That thing's going to fall over in the next stiff wind :lol: Unfortunately, one of the pitfalls of this game is that there are an awful lot of dodgy cars which have been given a nice shiny coat of paint, new wheels and a few trinkets like a nice steering wheel, are patted on the bum and rolled out onto teh dealer forecourt as "restored". But they're sheds underneath.

Over in Japan, a car like this will provide someone with a few years of fashionable cruising at a low price...at least until the chassis goes to full-Flintstones mode one day...and since ppl over there don't tend to hang onto their cars for many years anyway, maybe you can argue that it's fair enough. But that's not the sort of car you want.

Con2K wrote:
My concern with the time I spend saving/looking is will the prices continue to climb?

We did a blog post on that a while ago: http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/blog/20 ... 7-vs-2007/

What we found was that yes, prices for KGC10 have moved quite a bit since 1997, and I would say that since that blog post was written, it's gone up slightly again as more and more enthusiasts in Japan embrace nostalgics.

Con2K wrote:
It's not that I would have plans to sell it on in the future (but who knows what life throws at us) but to have a car that could potentially be an investment (within reason and excluding what mods you throw at it) would be a comforting feeling.

Word is from my mates in Japan is that there are lots of cars being dragged out of fields etc and are tarted up for sale because classic cars are the next big thing. But to be honest, if you had the only roadgoing KGC10 in Britain...how would you value it?

Sure, values in Japan may keep rising, and so anyone wanting to do the same as you and import one for themselves would have to pay more. But that is not to say that when you want to sell, there will be people with chequebooks out. That's often the dilemma with a very rare car though.

Con2K wrote:
I have plans to take a holiday to japan next year. I'd be interested in finding out as much info as possible and seeing if it was worth me actually having a closer look at some of the cars available. It's always a difficult thing being in a country where you know nobody and dont speak the language but trying to look for something very specific would be alot more difficult but i'm sure worth it. Even if I didnt come away with a car, if I came away with a much better understanding of what was available and at what price thats half the battle and a huge amount of doubt off my mind.

Why not plan your trip to coincide with a classic car show?
http://www.nostalgic.co.jp/ The Tokyo show is usually in May.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:44 am 
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Location: London, England, UK.
Con2K wrote:
Ah yes, a GTR in the UK, the blue and white one? A gorgeous example but obviously not in standard guise. Still, would be good to see it at a show or similar, get a real idea of what it looks like. Summer will be here soon and who knows what will come out of the woodwork for a sunny day at a jap/classic show!


Conor,
I'm not sure when I'll be taking the KPGC10 out next or where it will be, but I'll try to let you know beforehand just in case you can attend.

If you ever find yourself in the north London area, let me know and I could possibly let you see the car if I'm around.

One thing you might want to bear in mind is the low value of Sterling against the Yen at the moment. Since the middle of last year the value of Sterling started dropping and against the Yen it dipped as low as I can ever remember it in twenty-something years. At one point it was down as low as 132 Yen or so. Compare that with just a year or so ago when it was hitting something like 248 Yen or more. The situation now is quite a contrast.

I think as we go through 2010 and 2011 this will change. Japan is an export-based economy, and the high value of the Yen is hurting its exports. The Japanese government will probably try to devalue the Yen soon, and hopefully Sterling might start to recover a little too. If we get back to a situation where we can get around 200 Yen to the Pound Sterling it should stabilise things a little.

So - hopefully - things might be a little more favourable exchange-rate wise when you are eventually in a position to buy and import.

Don't worry too much about parts and data. The main thing is to buy a good base car. They are out there, but you have to try to make yourself focus on the mid-range cars rather than the slightly cheaper ones that seem attractive. If at all possible, take a short trip to Japan and have a look at a few in person. Take the plunge!

Cheers,
Alan T.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:07 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:47 pm
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Location: South West, UK
The link you supplied kev still seems odd. I can see some HUGE holes in the floor hidden away but regardless of that the car seems in pretty good condition on the interior and exterior trimmings, even the drivetrain from what we can make out of it.

I can understand that we are only looking at sample pictures of the car and cant get an accurate representation of bodywork condition say, around the strut tops for example but regardless of this I would have thought that it would still fetch a pretty penny because the work that would be needed to be carried out can be done by any reputable fabricator anywhere in the world. Its got the 'right' parts to begin with which from the v.minimal research I have done, is the harder thing to come across.

Alan - thankyou v.much for adding to the topic! The Current exchange rate is a very good point to bring up! All my quotes have been using an XE Currency converter and are obviously abit of a ball park figure. As you say, whe the time comes, if I expect to pay a certain amount, I may come away with some change in my pocket!

I am always over London, esp during the summer, be it car shows, visiting family or friends so I'm sure we could work something out. Even just to see one in the flesh would be a huge help. I doubt I would be disappointed but just looking at one in detail rather than a picture (or on Forza 3) would be reassuring to what I intend to buy and to justify the asking prices say for example to a mk1 escort that could be bought locally for as little as afew thousand.

At the v.least I'm sure I could make it to an event. Be it a static display or in motion its all good.

Oh, on the suject of escorts - is there not a demand for mk1's and 2's or cortina's etc over there to do an exchange...?

Regarldess of what i'm looknig for, everyone is confirming one thing I was thinking - go to Japan!

Regards.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:23 am 
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Con2K wrote:
The link you supplied kev still seems odd. I can see some HUGE holes in the floor hidden away but regardless of that the car seems in pretty good condition on the interior and exterior trimmings, even the drivetrain from what we can make out of it.

Yes...it's almost like it isn't the same car isn't it :D But I would be careful about giving a car like this the benefit of the doubt.

There are a surprising number of enthusiasts in Japan who would have a car that is bordering on structurally unsound...and yet the first thing they will spend money on is a nice set of wheels :lol: And when you look at the cheaper cars on goo-net, have a look at things like say, paintjobs that only go 1/4 of the way down an engine bay (ie, where the rest of it is a different colour!). Imagine the shortcuts taken to restore such a car.

Con2K wrote:
I can understand that we are only looking at sample pictures of the car and cant get an accurate representation of bodywork condition say, around the strut tops for example but regardless of this I would have thought that it would still fetch a pretty penny because the work that would be needed to be carried out can be done by any reputable fabricator anywhere in the world. Its got the 'right' parts to begin with which from the v.minimal research I have done, is the harder thing to come across.

Actually, things like shocks and springs, and wheels are available new and will probably be replaced anyway in the course of your own restoration. Things like webers and manifolds would be available in the UK from european or US brands. Things like badges and bits of trim are still mostly available, and small things are cheap to ship from Japan. And the Hako owners on here even get together from time to time to organise a group buy. And sooner or later, you'll succumb to the same disease as the rest of us and will start scouring Yahoo Auctions for rare vintage steering wheels :lol:

But what you can't get anymore are some panels.....so I would advise that you shouldn't get too caught up in the little bits and pieces that come with a particular car, because there are very few cool things that you can't get later. And as Alan has said, the important thing is to get a really good solid base to work on.

Con2K wrote:
Regarldess of what i'm looknig for, everyone is confirming one thing I was thinking - go to Japan!

There are many good reasons to go to Japan besides cars :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:37 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:47 pm
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I will continue to research the cars themselves and keep an eye on values etc. I will also spend some time over the weekend researching performance parts and aftermarket parts like brakes, suspension etc. Also more into the compatability of other datsuns such as the 240z etc. I have to admit I am new to all things old skool nissan so have no previous experience with them and what is/isnt compatible but I'm sure i'll pick it up quickly enough.

Yes there are many reasons to go to japan. There is so much I want to see/experience about the country, afew weeks over there feels like i'll never see half of it, which I suppose is a good thing because it means I will return many times!! It's a bloody long way though, dont mind the travelling, its the rates they charge you to get there!

I do feel that my first venture over there in a country where my language is poor limits me to what I want to do and where to go. It's a long way back to realise I missed something exciting when it was only round the corner. I need to learn alot more about the language too!

I get the impression alot of the members have travelled out there afew times? Or live there!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:33 pm 
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I've been there 15 times and I don't speak a word of Japanese :) Well, I am not counting words like hakosuka, etc :lol:

You'll be fine, muddling through is part of the fun...although after the 3rd time you accidentally order the family-size ramen bowl, you do start to feel a bit of a wally.
Image

In a nutshell about your questions, Hako is mostly similar to 510 chassis-wise. Some things like rear shocks and steering box are unique to Hako, but you can get them from Japan easily enough.

And absolutely the same as Zed powertrain-wise. There are some items that don't interchange with Zed, like extractors (which are a different shape) and (I think..) the radiator but that's about all. The aftermarket inlet manifold in my car is stamped "240Z" :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:04 am 

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haha! I hate onions, thats the only thing I'd want to avoid really! (needs to learn 'no onions' in japanese now) Seafood tho, love it! I'm sure I'd cope, as you say thats half the fun! I think for my 1st trip I'd have to head to Tokyo. Other places do appeal but thats the main one initially.

So it seems to be quite easy to get hold of parts. I consider C10's quite rare as you dont get many over here. I used to own a Ford Racing Puma and that was a limited run of 500. Most genuine parts specific to it are obsolete and it was a nightmare to get anything specific like panels, suspension, manifolds etc without paying a fortune purely because aftermarket suppliers could charge what they felt like. I suppose just because there isnt alot of C10's in this country doesnt mean there isnt enough of them elsewhere that aftermarket/genuine parts are available. I suppose part of the appeal is that you dont see them on every street corner.

I was half thinking about paying extra to get a container instead of RORO, see if others needed parts brought over which would bring the overall additional transport cost down for me and save them a fortune on postage costs. I used to do RoRo and know the sort of people who drive them on and off. Most are fine but there is always afew who see a particular car and give it some serious greif in less than a mile! But that is a loooong way off from where I am now. Need to spend some time looking at whats available aswell as continue to build up the funds!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:42 am 
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sorry to get waaaaay off topic, but post pics of your MK1 Fiesta somewhere. i love those little RWD's. kind of like a ford Starlet. :) wish there were more in the USA.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:29 am 

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Sorry to dissapoint mate but Mk1 Fiestas (all fiestas) are Front wheel drive.There are afew conversions that have been done though. I will post pics up when I get home, Cant access photobucket from work.

Cheers.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:38 pm 
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for some reason i always thought they were RWD. oh well. thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:12 pm 
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that Ramen looks very good.... For me I am aiming for Tokyo and also Ota City (yes I know I am a Subaru nut lol and also LOVE Udon!) for my first trip over whenever that will happen lol

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:51 pm 
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bajasoobnut wrote:
that Ramen looks very good.... For me I am aiming for Tokyo and also Ota City (yes I know I am a Subaru nut lol and also LOVE Udon!) for my first trip over whenever that will happen lol

It was very good...but after about 1/3 of it, I was struggling :)

It was had at this Mom n Pop place, deep in suburban east Toyko :D
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Right next door was this workshop :lol: Japan is full of cool discoveries :)
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:22 am 

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It's reasons like that kev that make me want to go there. Discoveries to be found around each corner! I'm afraid I'm holding your Hakosuka responsible for my recent urge to get over there asap! :wink:


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