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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:56 pm 

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No hurt feelings. Apparently no need to worry that having fun with the topic would hurt your feelings.

But the situation is that the rest of the culture is now calling 90's cars "old school". Actually, those articles are a couple years old now, so the rest of the world has been calling 90's cars "old school" for several years.

Agreement or disagreement with that really comes down to denial.

Nostalgic was supposed to be an ambiguous term to include more than is excludes and not have a year cutoff.
Maybe a good definition would be:
If you find yourself regularly using a tap and die to clean up the threads on nuts, bolts, and bolt holes, while doing just simple maintenance and repair on your car, it's nostalgic, because it's old enough that things are showing age, and because you are taking enough care to put things back together carefully, so in your mind, there is something important about the car.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:47 pm 
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FWIW, Modified is based in Canada...

From what I've seen on this forum alone, Canada has a very different definition of what is "old"... :P


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:04 am 
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paulneartarga wrote:
TacoDelRio wrote:
Sorta on topic, but would it be a huge pain in the ass to register a pre-Evo 8 Evolution in California? Looking for one for stage rally and I'm not fancying the idea of expensive tires.


Isn't there some sort of "off road" or "only for racing exemption"?

Otherwise build a Mirage.


Yeah, but I want to enjoy it without a trailer. :lol:

Building a Mirage would require a flat brimmed hat and about a thousand cans of Monster energy drink.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:21 am 

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TacoDelRio wrote:
Yeah, but I want to enjoy it without a trailer. :lol:

Building a Mirage would require a flat brimmed hat and about a thousand cans of Monster energy drink.


LOL.

Move to Canada then. :D


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:31 am 

Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 6:18 am
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JT191 wrote:
But the situation is that the rest of the culture is now calling 90's cars "old school". Actually, those articles are a couple years old now, so the rest of the world has been calling 90's cars "old school" for several years.


That's completely fictitious. Just because a couple of magazines say it is so, doesn't make it so.

JT191 wrote:
Agreement or disagreement with that really comes down to denial.


Reaching out, huh? I'll be honest, man. The only people (and I mean this) that do what they can to provide an "argument" to include their cars in the OS category are the people that were told their cars were not OS. Not trying to instigate, but my past experiences have dictated this to me.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:41 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:26 am
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qdseeker wrote:
a couple of magazines say it is so, doesn't make it so.

The only people (and I mean this) that do what they can to provide an "argument" to include their cars in the OS category are the people that were told their cars were not OS.


There's only a couple of magazines left. Most of them closed up and shut down. The import car culture is not on the expansion.
And I've already pointed out that the magazines are notoriously poor at providing accurate technical information. The only thing they do well is reflect culture, specifically what the masses are spending money on. Whatever is selling the hottest gets featured, because content is dictated by advertising, and companies only advertise what they know they can sell. The result is the magazines providing a mirror of what the readership is consuming.
Right now, that is the 90's is old school.

Those quotes were dug out because someone said "I can't imagine anyone calling 90's cars old school". Well, several someones at two different media companies did. The point was made.
Disagree? Well, start quoting articles from a printed source that say 90's is not old school.

Side note: Modified's address is in Florida. I seem to remember Super Street being in California.

And Old School is not something that people want to be. It is a put down indicating that the thing being described is not the current latest and greatest. Maybe a back handed compliment, meaning "I heard the name of the old thing, and immediately thought 'What a piece-of-crap', and after seeing it, realize it's not half bad for a piece-of-crap, but not as good as the current state-of-the-art.

The real issue here is that the world moved on and there is a new crop of cars that are now between new and antique. The chrome-bumper-and-carburetor-only crowd don't want to loose the exclusivity of their group, and grasp at any reason to exclude the new group.
Time won't stop.

The only real solutions are:
Everyone become a little less exclusionary and say "whatever" instead of trying so hard to make up reasons to keep others out.
Or,
Create subsets to the group so the people with a hard-on for excluding others can say "Yeah, it's also a nostalgic, but it's not part of my group, it's part of that group over there".


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:18 am 

Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 6:18 am
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^^^ See what I mean? \/ \/ \/

qdseeker wrote:
The only people (and I mean this) that do what they can to provide an "argument" to include their cars in the OS category are the people that were told their cars were not OS.


There's really no reason to continue as it will lead nowhere. You can have your "new-old school" misnomer or whatever you want to call it. But beating a dead horse is just that.....

But I do find it funny that you're now insulting people in the OS community that you so want to be included in. I don't know, man.

But enjoy yourself and your new found community, dude.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:44 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:26 am
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qdseeker wrote:
"new-old school" misnomer


It's a discussion about the definition of "nostalgic". If you want to equate nostalgic with "old school", fine. There seems to be a desire to equate nostalgic, old school, classic, and antique. Classic and antique have rigid definitions put forth by another car related organization, the Classic Car Club of America. Antique is 45+ years old. Classic is 25+ years old. They put additional requirements above and beyond age:
Quote:
Usually the cars recognized as “CCCA Classics” were built in
limited production numbers and were quite expensive when new.
As a group, they represent the pinnacle of engineering, styling and
design for their era.

http://www.classiccarclub.org

The subject is long overdue for serious discussion, which you do not want to have. Digging your heals in and proclaiming that you are not willing to budge is not constructive or productive.

It makes absolutely no sense to make nostalgic 25+ years, when classic is already 25+ years. Doing so would render the word nostalgic irrelevant, and the website would be more aptly named Japanese Classic Car Dot Com.

In addition, adopting hard line date definitions, while ignoring the additional requirements for classic status, is hypocritical. By very definition, most Japanese cars would not qualify as either limited production, or expensive when new. Not to mention the requirement for And what about representing the pinnacle of engineering, styling and
design for their era. If you are going to smorgass board the definition, then why smorgass board only those requirements that include inexpensive mass production 25+ year old cars, and exclude expensive limited production cars that are 25- years old?

Now, is there a discussion, or a lot more heal digging?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:53 pm 
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Gee wiz Wally, what's all the fuss about?

Everybody has their own definition of what is or isn't old school.

Just because Modified, Jassics, or SuperStreet say one thing, doesn't make it so. That's their opinions and they are free to choose and say so. AND, like you say, times change, people change, ideas and ideology change. Nothing is set in stone.

JNC has it's own set of standards, and it's not up to me to say if that is right or wrong. If a cut-off year is chosen on purpose or if it is arbitrarily chosen, that is up to the powers at JNC. If JNC decides old school means anything up to and including 1985 - I live with it. I'm a guest here and I accept those terms. Maybe they'll change one day to include 90's rides, but that is up to them and should not be influenced solely by 'members' suggestions or complaints. If that were the case, everything would be constantly changing, and the site and magazine would be in a 'constant state of flux.' So, that's not to say they shouldn't listen to us, but WE shouldn't complain or fuss if our opinions or suggestions or wishes and desires are not implemented. Chill, relax, and enjoy JNC for what it is.


them's my 2 cents :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:13 pm 
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BTW - more definitions according to the CCCA, taken directly from their site:

Quote:
ANTIQUE
A general description of any car that is 25 years old or more. All Full Classics(tm) are antiques, but not all antiques are Full Classics(tm) as defined by the club.

CCCA CLASSIC
A term defined by the Classic Car Club of America to include only specific important marques built largely between 1925 and 1948. See a list of CCCA Classics on our website.

CLASSIC CAR
When used by the Classic Car Club of America, it is an exclusive list that includes only specific important marques built between largely between 1925 and 1948. The term is often applied loosely by owners to any car.

CLASSIC
(Br.) Post WW-2 collectable car. These are not the cars CCCA is talking about, but our friends in the UK are. We are indeed two nations separated by a common language.

FULL CLASSIC
A term defined by the Classic Car Club of America to include only specific important marques built largely between 1925 and 1948. See a list of Full Classics(tm) on our website.

And a Few Humorous Contributions:

Antique
Any car older than yourself.

Classic
The car you wanted when you were in high school but could not afford.

New
Any car newer than your oldest child.


And they have nothing for "Nostalgic"

Oh, I don't agree or disagree with them. It's their club and their definitions.

But all this still doesn't answer this thread starters inquiry of when will early Evo's be allowed...? :?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:56 pm 
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toyotageek wrote:
But all this still doesn't answer this thread starters inquiry of when will early Evo's be allowed...? :?


Well, that was answered waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the third post of this thread.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

ben wrote:
I love both of your cars, especially the Galant VR4. Our rule of thumb is 25 years or older


The rest of this has just been one big JO session... :roll:




JT191 wrote:
Side note: Modified's address is in Florida.


Yeah, but their office is in Toronto. :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:00 pm 

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toyotageek wrote:
Gee wiz Wally, what's all the fuss about?


I simply voiced my opinion.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:24 am 
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datsunfreak wrote:
toyotageek wrote:
But all this still doesn't answer this thread starters inquiry of when will early Evo's be allowed...? :?

Well, that was answered waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the third post of this thread.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Looking... looking.... found it!
ben wrote:
I love both of your cars, especially the Galant VR4. Our rule of thumb is 25 years or older for that body style (ie, a 1986 Cressida is ok because that body style began in 1985). We choose do make that cutoff only because that's when most states allow historic license plates and classic car insurance.


OH yeah! There it was... but it was the 5th post of the thread, that's why I missed it! :lol:


qdseeker wrote:
toyotageek wrote:
Gee wiz Wally, what's all the fuss about?


I simply voiced my opinion.


And you are entitled to it! :D

I did not single you or any other poster out. I was just voicing my opinion too, in my own obnoxious anal-retentive way. :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:20 am 

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toyotageek wrote:
I did not single you or any other poster out. I was just voicing my opinion too, in my own obnoxious anal-retentive way. :wink:


TG, I wasn't trying to sound rude in my response, sir. It just seems that the unnecessary banter was born from my initial post.

And I apologize for my part in its continuation.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:41 am 
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qdseeker wrote:
TG, I wasn't trying to sound rude in my response, sir. It just seems that the unnecessary banter was born from my initial post.

And I apologize for my part in its continuation.


That's cool man. We're all entitled to our opinions and that's what this forum is all about. Sometimes we just get a little passionate with our responses (including myself at times). There was no harm done and no need for you to apologize. :tu:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:36 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:26 am
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Location: Midwest, USA
Antique Automobile Club of America
Quote:
Antique is 45+ years old. Classic is 25+ years old.


toyotageek wrote:
more definitions according to the CCCA:

Quote:
ANTIQUE
A general description of any car that is 25 years old or more. All Full Classics(tm) are antiques, but not all antiques are Full Classics(tm) as defined by the club.

CCCA CLASSIC
A term defined by the Classic Car Club of America to include only specific important marques built largely between 1925 and 1948. See a list of CCCA Classics on our website.

CLASSIC CAR
When used by the Classic Car Club of America, it is an exclusive list that includes only specific important marques built between largely between 1925 and 1948. The term is often applied loosely by owners to any car.

CLASSIC
(Br.) Post WW-2 collectable car. These are not the cars CCCA is talking about, but our friends in the UK are. We are indeed two nations separated by a common language.

FULL CLASSIC
A term defined by the Classic Car Club of America to include only specific important marques built largely between 1925 and 1948. See a list of Full Classics(tm) on our website.


And they have nothing for "Nostalgic"

Oh, I don't agree or disagree with them. It's their club and their definitions.


The English language does not have an organization to set definitions or enforce its usage, like French does. Because of this, when an organizations like the AACA and CCCA sets down a definition and makes use of that definition, it gets adopted by the rest of the world.

It's conspicuous that the AACA and CCCA do not have a definition of Nostalgic, and that JNC uses the word Nostalgic and not Classic. And that is because JNC is dealing with cars that do not meet the definition of Classic. Cars which do not qualify as classic due to country of origin, acceptance by fans of American and European cars, AND age. JNC conspicuously and intentionally did not use the word Classic, because the definition of Classic does not match the cars being described.

The problem is that there is no stated definition of Nostalgic. If it is not synonymous with Classic, then it is NOT 25+ years, and would be 25- years, down to some date which has not been stated.

So what is the window?
20-25 years? Sort of a small group. Probably not a good politicial move either.
15-25 years? Still rather narrow considering Classic spans a twenty year window.
10-25 years? Probably a good match of length of time considering Classic is twenty years and Antique is open ended.

When does a 1993 car attain Nostalgic status? Throwing out the most ridiculously restrictive and exclusionary requirement, and the overly generous definition of the other end of the spectrum, the most reasonable and realistic answer is:
2008.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:27 pm 
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I think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill in regards to JNC's use of the term Nostalgic. Or, maybe I'm missing something.

Perhaps there should be a governing body that determines automotive nomenclature, but to my limited scope of knowledge, there isn’t. Just because one organization says one thing, doesn’t make it right. Club “A” has one definition and Club “B” has another.... so who’s right?

In one entry you state:

JT191 wrote:
... Classic and antique have rigid definitions put forth by another car related organization, the Classic Car Club of America. Antique is 45+ years old. Classic is 25+ years old. They put additional requirements above and beyond age:
Quote:
Usually the cars recognized as “CCCA Classics” were built in
limited production numbers and were quite expensive when new.
As a group, they represent the pinnacle of engineering, styling and
design for their era.

http://www.classiccarclub.org


While in fact the CCCA says...


Quote:
CCCA CLASSIC
A term defined by the Classic Car Club of America to include only specific important marques built largely between 1925 and 1948. See a list of CCCA Classics on our website.

CLASSIC CAR
When used by the Classic Car Club of America, it is an exclusive list that includes only specific important marques built between largely between 1925 and 1948. The term is often applied loosely by owners to any car.

CLASSIC
(Br.) Post WW-2 collectable car. These are not the cars CCCA is talking about, but our friends in the UK are. We are indeed two nations separated by a common language.


Which would make a classic at least 62 years old.
And they disagree what the Brits define.

Also according to the CCCA, an ANTIQUE car would be 25 years old
Quote:
ANTIQUE
A general description of any car that is 25 years old or more. All Full Classics(tm) are antiques, but not all antiques are Full Classics(tm) as defined by the club.


What bothers me even more about the CCCA is this little part...

Quote:
...only specific important marques...


"Only specific important marques"..., so what about everything else? Sounds a bit exclusive to me. :roll:

Now, as for this...

JT191 wrote:
Antique Automobile Club of America
Quote:
Antique is 45+ years old. Classic is 25+ years old.


Mind you, I have not visited their site to confirm anything, but according to your post, their definition is just the opposite that of the CCCA.

Now I can not speak for the founders of JNC, but if you ask me, when they coined their name, I have a feeling they were thinking more in these lines, as taken from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

Quote:
Nostalgic
2. a wistful or excessively sentimental yearning for return to or of some past period or irrecoverable condition; also : something that evokes nostalgia


This falls more in line with that popular magazine from Japan that a lot of us like to look at, Nostalgic Hero. I think their use of the term Nostalgic is based on a similar definition.

And if JNC want's to go with 1985 as a date to determine which cars are in & which cars are out, that's fine by me. It's their magazine and they may set their own standard as to what is included. Maybe at some point, they will include a section for 'new' nostalgics. Either way, whatever they do, whatever they call it, I'm happy that they DO cover old Japanese cars, regardless of what anyone wants to call them.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:40 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:26 am
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toyotageek wrote:
This falls more in line with that popular magazine from Japan that a lot of us like to look at, Nostalgic Hero. I think their use of the term Nostalgic is based on a similar definition.

And if JNC want's to go with 1985 as a date to determine which cars are in & which cars are out, that's fine by me. It's their magazine and they may set their own standard as to what is included. Maybe at some point, they will include a section for 'new' nostalgics. Either way, whatever they do, whatever they call it, I'm happy that they DO cover old Japanese cars, regardless of what anyone wants to call them.


If it's a reference to Nostalgic Hero magazine, then your understanding and the correlation is incorrect.
http://geibunsha.co.jp/mag/nh/en/
Quote:
A magazine nostalgic hero is introducing vintage cars which produced by Japanese products. Published cars are cars produced since 1950 to 1980.


This definition would EXCLUDE:
AE86
MR2
Supra
Sentra
Stanza
Maxima
200SX
300ZX
Most RX7
323
MX6
Miata
Starion
Tredia
Cordia
Mirage
etc., etc., etc.

Geibunsha Publishing Co. has a second magazine to cover 1980s, Hachi Maru.

The 25+ thing came up only very recently, in a single post, and it does not match the previously stated policy (nostalgic is a vague term without a date requirement). Also, it doesn't match the Japanese magazine namesake.

So the original post is a question that can not be answered.
We don't have a definition of the word.
gdseeker doesn't have the answer.
toyotageek doesn't have the answer.
datsunfreak doesn't have the answer.
I don't have the answer.
Ben's comment doesn't match the previous statements.
And no one has said if this is a group decision, dictator's edict, or what.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:08 pm 
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JT191 wrote:
toyotageek wrote:
This falls more in line with that popular magazine from Japan that a lot of us like to look at, Nostalgic Hero. I think their use of the term Nostalgic is based on a similar definition.

And if JNC want's to go with 1985 as a date to determine which cars are in & which cars are out, that's fine by me. It's their magazine and they may set their own standard as to what is included. Maybe at some point, they will include a section for 'new' nostalgics. Either way, whatever they do, whatever they call it, I'm happy that they DO cover old Japanese cars, regardless of what anyone wants to call them.


If it's a reference to Nostalgic Hero magazine, then your understanding and the correlation is incorrect.

http://geibunsha.co.jp/mag/nh/en/
Quote:
A magazine nostalgic hero is introducing vintage cars which produced by Japanese products. Published cars are cars produced since 1950 to 1980.


No, actually your understanding of what I'm saying is incorrect. My reference is to the title of the magazine, not the magazine content.

And referencing the English page is somewhat mute, since it is a automated software translation, that really doesn't tell us about the origins or meaning of the magazine's title.

Quote:
This definition would EXCLUDE:
AE86
MR2
Supra
Sentra
Stanza
Maxima
200SX
300ZX
Most RX7
323
MX6
Miata
Starion
Tredia
Cordia
Mirage
etc., etc., etc.

Geibunsha Publishing Co. has a second magazine to cover 1980s, Hachi Maru.


Ah, now I see it, JNC should publish a magazine called NJNC - Not Japanese Nostalgic Car, for the cars that aren't nostalgic.

Quote:
The 25+ thing came up only very recently, in a single post, and it does not match the previously stated policy (nostalgic is a vague term without a date requirement). Also, it doesn't match the Japanese magazine namesake.

So the original post is a question that can not be answered.
We don't have a definition of the word.
gdseeker doesn't have the answer.
toyotageek doesn't have the answer.
datsunfreak doesn't have the answer.
I don't have the answer.
Ben's comment doesn't match the previous statements.
And no one has said if this is a group decision, dictator's edict, or what.


No one has the answers. Everyone's previous statements do not match. Thus I've come to the conclusion that if there is no answer, there is then no point in discussing the matter and everything we say or do is pointless. The point of everything we have discussed is totally useless. And if everything is pointless and useless, then there is no such thing as a classic, antique or nostalgic car. There are only cars.

And there really is no point in me continuing this pointless discussion.

Now that you've made me completely dizzy with all this head spinning, I think I'll go sit down and watch some Japanese Nostalgic/Vintage/Classic/Old TV shows on DVD.

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