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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 8:50 am 
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from another forum wrote:
my math says you need a 5.415mm thick bucket.
So the closest bucket is 13751-23180 @ 5.42mm thick


from another forum wrote:
Still a bit sleepy ;) but should be 5.42 which is 13751-23180
5.12+0.495 = 5.615 - 0.2 (for intake clearance) = 5.415 (all numbers in mm).
As the lifters are available in increments of 0.02 the 5.42 is the closest match.
Taken from the list here



from another forum wrote:
13751-23280.

Edit.. nope that's less then .002" left.


13751-23180 (5.42)
that should leave about .0072"


Closest... yes.... but I wont be using that one, I'll be using 23170.

Here is why...

The cams call for an intake clearance of .2mm (.0078") If this head had either a plain lap-in, or a street 3 angle, I would say it was good enough.... BUT, remember this has a "race" 3 angle, the valve is cut 1 degree less then the seat. This means during break in the valve may move a tiny amount up on its seat. I asked a few machine shops who build race engines and .0005" should be accounted for....

So as much as I would really like to get the 23180, I purchased the 23170 instead.

**IF** I had my own equipment, I could disassemble that valve and clip the tip of the valve .0013" and be perfect with the 23180.


More to come.... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 11:08 am 
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from another forum wrote:
We change the seat width not angle the valve grind.
.040 wide for hi-po stuff and .060 wide for street.
A quick hand lap with ultra fine paste and the valves seal
Instantly. Recleaned before assemble of course.


I'm told this is a track engine, typically I use 040 for intake and 060 for exhaust on 4AGs...



from another forum wrote:
How hard is it to grind the top of the valve? Measure the length of the valve before and after and use a grinding stone to cut it down?

Why do you run a 1 deg difference from the valve to the head? and what direction is "less"? Is the valve making contact with the head further inward or outward with the 1 deg difference? If it just seating pressure why not run a smaller seating surface?

Questions/suggestions are not a criticism I am asking because your work is beyond mine and the above is how I would do things :)


no criticism taken... :)

With the right equipment the valve is installed in a valve machine vice, and the machine will measure the tip, and then you set the grinder to take off the appropriate amount... very easy...

The contact point is further outward. As you break in the engine* the valve and seat pound together to form a nice tight seal. This pounding distorts the valve and seat slightly to provide an adequate seat and is why the valve may move up. The added degree on the valve allows for added filling on the initial opening and just before closing of the valve... think of it as an extra back cut

the exhaust valve ISN'T similarly cut, just the intake.


* another reason to break in an engine "hard"

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 2:23 pm 
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my flow bench has a new adapter.... 86mm :tu:


Image



Welcome: Subaru/Toyota FA20/4-UGSE, Mazda/Ford F2T, Toyota 1J/2J, Nissan SR20, Nissan RB25/26, Toyota 3SG... and I'm sure many others...

I can now do flowbench testing on... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:02 pm 
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Wow...

its been 30 days... I TRIED to order the buckets through Toyota... they sold me the 8 sizing buckets... but alas they didn't "release" the 16 needed to set clearances (boooooo). Soooo... My client got them directly from Japan... and so we had a 30 day wait... :(


In the quote below.... see the cam lobe barely in frame on the right... that is #2 intake valve assembly...

ost wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:
Image

This is important when I'm purchasing 16 buckets and they are $12 each, I'd rather not get this wrong....



Ok.... since I don't want to get this wrong....... :(

how about a bit of a brain teaser... :eek:


the photo above is an intake cam lobe. Tell me what 1SZ bucket I'll need (10 digit part number, please)???



..... and I should have had everyone check me on that one.... :(

15 of 16 buckets are all well in tolerance... but #2 intake is too tight. It measures a tight .007" (.178mm), minimum is a tight .008" (.203mm), so I'm going to TRY (hope... prey... beg) that Toyota will release the one bucket I need....


here's hoping.... more to come...... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:42 pm 
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from another forum wrote:
Or remove the valve and have them take just a tad off the top of the stem if you didn't want to grind the bucket.


.001" to be exact... thank you for the suggestion. Toyota FAILED :td:

so I popped the valve out brought it over to "L" and asked them to tip it .001". 10 min later I got my valve back, installed it and we are good to go. The head is all boxed up and ready to ship...

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:25 am 
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So... onto OST-028: Redline it baby...


Yes... I know how to count, OST-027 hasn't been forgotten... :mrgreen:



So... onto OST-028 Redline it baby...

I get a tub from Fed Ex.... yes a tub

Image

Image


As I unpack.... the goodies reveal themselves :D

Image


Dig a bit further.... note the cam cover studs poking through??

Image




Well the cam boxes were on top - note the punch marks in the cam outer packaging. No harm, no foul - the inner packaging, in this case, was not damaged, and neither were the cams.

Image

also worth noting... the Redline DCOE manifold, along with the T3 TVIS delete plate.



My audience tends to enjoy my little quizzes..... :)


length of intake port - mounting surface to back edge of intake valve = 4.1" (104mm)

thickness of T3 adapter = .9" (23mm)

The Redline DCOE manifold = 2.1"(53mm) Do to spacing... cyl 1 and 4 have a heavy taper and so valve #2 and #7 actually measure 2.35" (59mm).

The length of a DCOE (without velocity stack) = 4.64" (118mm)

Cams... Tomei Poncams - 264 duration (3500-8000) peak torque @ 5500

Sooooo... my question to you all is.... Does my client need/want to keep, the TVIS delete plate???



more to come..... :mrgreen:

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Last edited by oldeskewltoy on Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:01 pm 
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http://s-86.com/article_intake.php
http://www.chrysler300club.com/uniq/allaboutrams/ramtheory.htm
http://www.team-integra.net/forum/blogs/michaeldelaney/130-intake-manifold-tech-runner-size-calculations.html


So... now with more information.... which is better.... keep the T3 delete, or discard it???



from another forum wrote:
I'mma saaaayyy..... No he doesn't need it because of the lengths of the adapters and DCOEs.



from another forum wrote:
Ummm... In terms of runner length and design, wouldn't it be better to go with the dcoe only?


Did you get a chance to read the ramtheory link? What I'm trying to do is back up the cams peak torque, by attempting to time the intake wave oscillations so that @ 5500 as the cam begins to come on its peak, I can add a bit of ram theory to better maximize that rpm band....

VERY simplified - because the valves open and close the intake charge is actually moving back and forth, or more accurately a pressure wave is moving back and forth inside the intake and the port. What I'm attempting to do is either add, or subtract the .9" of the delete plate to better match the intake length to the desired peak torque point (or as close as possible).

Shorter isn't always better..... :lol:

from another forum wrote:
Thanks for the info OST! I think I learned a lot.

If I did the math correctly, you want to leave the TVIS delete in for the ideal runner length of ~11.65". With that length the pressure wave would travel the length of the runner exactly 8 times from intake valve opening to intake valve opening for maximum ram effect @5500 rpm.



Image

that's the theory....

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:56 am 
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from another forum wrote:
What about testing both? Or make up the difference with velocity stack length?

Since I'm not building the engine, nor installing it, testing it is unlikely for me, but is an option for my client.

Velocity stack length can help tune things, but it is usually better to have the throttle plate[s] placed further away from the valve then closer to it - typically higher air velocity.

same author as above quote wrote:
What looks best on paper isn't always what is fastest, or best feeling.

no argument... BUT the 16V 4AGE is far more sorted then... say a 20V 4AGE. The 16V is easier to determine because if it.

same author as above quote wrote:
What is the owner wanting out of it?


early client email wrote:
I am building a largeport and was
looking to get some head work done. On this build the block and crank are
from a 20v st, also bc rods and 11.1:1 wiseco pistons. I will be running
poncams. Im not looking for anything too crazy, just looking for your basic
job really. I am sure the chambers need work. Currently the head needs
decking


By the way... if you haven't yet figured it out... or surmised it... this client is no longer running those Wiseco's, he will be running the very first set of the OST/JE Asym pistons - ;)


more to come.... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:47 am
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from another forum wrote:
oldeskewltoy wrote:
no argument... BUT the 16V 4AGE is far more sorted then... say a 20V 4AGE. The 16V is easier to determine because if it.


Oh, absolutely. A lot more development in the 16v. Much easier to predict. Especially when you're close to someone who's probably got more man hours into development for it than everyone on this board combined.


see below....



from a different forum wrote:
i'd rather have the Wiseco's.

JE can suck it from personal experience.

others i know have had issues as well.
they switched to CP. no longer crack pistons.


Heh, ok.... I can't speak to your experiences... or "others" as you put it...

Since I have no direct piston building/design experience, I based my decision on what I saw @ the shop that builds these (4AGE engines) for a living...

In the 6 years I've been going to Loynings... I've never seen them use anything else... but JE Pistons :D




Head should be back on Monday from getting pressure checked....


Image



more to come.... :mrgreen:

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Last edited by oldeskewltoy on Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:19 am 
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from another forum wrote:
Looks perty. :)

The head had serious work done before pressure checking? Or is this a post work extra check? I also consider pen-dye worthwhile in addition. You have opinion on it?

Can't wait to see what the performance looks like. :D


The client said the person he bought it from had cleaned and pressure checked it. It is clean, but for some reason **IF** it wasn't pressure checked $1000 worth of porting will be for naught... so for $60 we had it re-checked.


same poster as above wrote:
As this is similar to my build, I'd guess peak torque is closer to 6200rpm. I imagine a fully optimized motor with OS valves running the poncams could come in around 180+hp crank, and on that alone TVIS delete is probably a good call.

I wanna disable my TVIS soon enough to compare low end response.


thank you for that.... The Tomei Poncam dyno shows peak @ 6000, it also shows that the peak is preceded by the climb to the peak 500 rpm early... @ 5500.

My purpose for trying to get the intake length a bit longer is to attempt to aid the torque rise... and in so doing offer the client a very strong mid range to peak rpm powerband.

Your intake length is closer to 17.5" (4.1head + .9TVIS + 12.5intake manifold to plenum) @ what rpm point does that length favor??

Just doing a quick bit of basic math shows 17.5" is not a clean equation for an intake pulse @ 5500. 17.5 does not divide 93 without a remainder, it does divide cleanly by 87.5, or 105

Maybe we can get one of our other math wizards to give us the rpm levels those 2 numbers calculate out too......

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:15 pm 
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The head pressure checked out fine....

Image

she now carries her new serial number.... :)


More to come.... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:52 pm 
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deburring..... these are the 2 exhaust valve bucket cradles from #2 cyl

Image



not multiply that by 8...





more to come..... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:40 am 
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Now that the pistons are finalized and being built, its time to return my focus towards the head.


oldeskewltoy wrote:

The Redline DCOE manifold.... Do to spacing... cyl 1 and 4 have a heavy taper and so valve #2 and #7 actually measure 2.35" (59mm).


Image


:cry:


....looking at the problem from a different perspective....


Image

The red lines represent the air path from the carb mount flange to the valves. The carb spacing is wider than the ports, and leads to the awkward set up you see.........







So I got to thinking..... what if.....

Image




So last night I made this......

Image

Image

besides showing the mismatches between manifold, delete plate and head... it does do what I was thinking.... AND it dramatizes what the problem is...

Image





I'm just not sure.... so I'll be getting a few opinions.........


To answer a few questions up front... 1) nothing has been ported yet so these are not the final pieces... 2) The rubber would still not be the final part The rubber would be the mold to make the final part. Each piece would have an external screw, as well as epoxy for final mounting.....?????

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:38 pm 
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from another forum wrote:
how about making a flow test of the versions with and without TVIS delete? I know it's a lot of work but might be worth it to see a tendancy as well as difference between the outer and inner ports.
Also in this case staggered intake lenghts (trumpets) might be an option.


I'm not sure if I'm chasing imaginary, or real results.... as I said I'll be asking more from a few people I confer with.


Image

As can be seen below, and as noted in the above post, the entire intake needs to be manipulated/adjusted, and then blended as one

Image

black arrows - show direction of incoming air
solid blue lines - show areas to be ported
dashed blue line represents - the amount the manifold needs to be moved up.


So it is vital to determine the actual location of the manifold... in relation to the T3 delete plate, and then once they are mounted as one, to determine the T3 plate on the head.


So using 2 long bolts I fasten the manifold to the T3 plate set them as carefully as I can ( aligning the bottom port edges to be as flush as possible through all 4 ports) and them tightening the bolts to lock the 2 together.

Then I pick 2 points in the flange, one between cyl 1 and 2, the other between 3 and 4, that I can drill 2 small (3/32") holes... through the manifold and into the T3 plate. Then, using 3/32" x 1" roll(tension) pins I mount the manifold to the T3 plate in one place.

Image

Image
{note far left port in manifold(bottom in photo) has been ported to size, while the other 3 ports await...}

This, the roll pin mounts, will allow me to repeatedly mount and dismount the manifold from the T3 plate and then reaffix them in the same place, time after time.



As is typical with the T3 plate it is the overall size of the gasket... NOT the port...

Image

so when laid over the intake... you can see the bottom edge, and the top edge of the head are in the airstream. The T3 plate is well situated horizontally. So as with the other T3 products I've worked, jack screws are added, and I'll be elongating the T3 mount holes to allow me vertical adjustment with the jack screws.


Image


More to come..... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:31 pm 
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oldeskewltoy wrote:

As is typical with the T3 plate it is the overall size of the gasket... NOT the port...

Image




Because of this I have to make a choice....

Image

up it is...


A lot more to come..... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:16 am 
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from another forum wrote:
Under "choice" you mean question where to grind head up/down/both sides?


yes..... Any porter will tell you if you must open (change) a port... TRY to do so by decreasing the angle to the valve.


So the port roof will be tapered to match the roof of the T3 delete plate....



Image

view on far left shows stock shape, center view shows what I normally do with a largeport, and finally in the far right view the dotted line shows what I'll be doing in this case.

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:39 pm 
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Image

exhaust port 2 in transition

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:29 pm 
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from another forum wrote:
Lookit you and these fancy transition pictures!!! lol


what can I say... :)




#3 intake - bowls and seats roughed out....


Image

a LOT of material was removed from that right side bowl (#5 valve)


More to come.... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:32 pm 
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bowl #4 as it grows from 24.8mm to 26.2mm

Image
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Oldeskewltoy's Headshop....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:11 pm 
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Shaping #1 intake bowls/short radii

Image


and with the intake bowls and seats finished...

Image

Oh... the exhaust bowls, seats and ports are now done as well :D


Next will come a bit of deshrouding.....


More to come..... :mrgreen:

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