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Thread: 50 Victories of PGC10 / KPGC10 Skyline GT-R - myth or fact?

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    50 Victories of PGC10 / KPGC10 Skyline GT-R - myth or fact?

    On a recent JNC blog entry, here: http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/2011/05 ... /#comments

    ...JNC forum member and Isuzu fan 'JT191' made some rather interesting comments regarding the validity of Nissan's claims to ( over! ) 50 in-period race victories for the PGC10 / KPGC10 Skyline GT-R. Rather than continue - pointlessly - with an off-topic exchange on a JNC blog entry, I invited JT191 to either start a new thread on the topic himself, or I would do it for him. He hasn't created a new thread, so I've been to the supermarket, I've bought their entire stock of extra-wide tin foil, and I've started a thread. Let's see what happens.....

    Here are some quotes from JT191, with some answers from me:

    Quote Originally Posted by JT191
    So it is not the original GTX.
    The GTX that won the 12 Hours of Suzuka on August 9-10, 1969, with 245 laps, which is 15 laps more than the closest Nissan car entered.
    The baby blue GTX with aluminum body driven by Shigeki Asaoka.
    What you are calling "the original GTX" actually dated back a little further than that. For example, back in September 1968, Isuzu ISCC rather optimistically entered a pair of modified PR61 Belletts ( fitted with the G161W engine ) in the 'R-II' class of the Suzuka 1000km race. I say optimistically because this put them up against some fairly specialised machinery in the 'R-II' class - but then Isuzu had no choice because at that point the G161W engine was not fitted to a homologated production model of Bellett ( more on racing class entries later ). In that '68 Suzuka 1000km, one Bellett GTX finished in 8th place overall and 3rd in the 'R-II' class. The other GTX was unclassified, along with about 22 other cars in a race with high attrition.

    In June 1969 Isuzu's ISCC once again entered a pair ( the pair... ) of Bellett GTXs in the 'R-II' class of the Suzuka 1000kms race. Once again they would be up against some fairly exotic machinery in that 'R-II' class, but also once again they had no choice as the G161W engine still wasn't homologated for more suitable classes. This time both GTXs failed to be classified, the first finishing over 71 laps behind the winning car and with over 20 cars in front of it, and the second a further 30 laps adrift. Some you win, some you lose....

    Interestingly, JT161 chooses to cite the result from the August 9th-10th 1969 Suzuka 1000km event, where one of the Bellett GTXs took advantage of the high attrition rate of the favourites ( a Porsche Carrera 6 ran ot of fuel, one of the Honda R1300s crashed and burned and the other suffered woes ) and came in with an overall win and first in the 'R-II' class. There were just two other cars in the 'R-II' class that day, as many teams were over at Fuji Speedway that weekend and Nissan's works PMCS team were notching up another win in the TS-II class with the GT-R.....

    So, the story is perhaps a little bit more complex than is being presented. JT161's "first GTX" was in fact not a full production model and was forced to run in a class that - all being equal - it would probably struggle to be competitive in. Still, the race is not always to the swift....

    Quote Originally Posted by JT161
    The baby blue GTX with aluminum body driven by Shigeki Asaoka.
    By the way, you might like to note that ASAOKA san's given name is spelled Shigeaki, not "Shigeki".

    Quote Originally Posted by JT191
    Japanese touring car racing divided cars into three classes which raced simultaneously. 1. Below 2 liter /four cylinder sedan / 4 door. 2. GT or 2 door. 3. Above 2 liter / above four cylinder sedan / four door.
    Nissan raced unopposed in that third class.
    The undocumented claim of 50 Nissan GTR victories is based on class victories, not overall victories, and built on running the four door car unopposed in the third class.
    I'm afraid you seem to have little real idea of what was going on with the racing classes during that period. It was something of a moveable feast, with classes having different rules and capacity limits depending on the race series the particular race organisers, and even the venue chosen. More on this later, but note that the divisions you have stated above are actually incorrect.

    You seem to have been under the impression that Nissan was claiming OVERALL race wins for ALL of its '50 Victories', when in fact they did nothing of the kind. However, there WERE some overall victories involved in the list. More on that too later.

    Quote Originally Posted by JT161
    Nissan did not introduce their GTR as a two door, placed pre-production models into racing, and even after later introducing the two door version, continued to race four door cars in the unopposed class.
    Quite ironic that you wrote this about the GT-R, when you cited the Bellett GTX above. The Bellett GTX was exactly what you ( incorrectly ) slate the GT-R for being; namely a "pre-production" model. Both the PGC10 and KPGC10 were properly homologated production models ( is that the case for the Bellett GTX / Bellett GTR? ) and there was certainly no skullduggery involved in their eligibility for the races they took part in.

    Quote Originally Posted by JT191
    Still no sign of that fictitious list of 50 victories
    More later, as I'm warming up the scanner to provide you with the list you say does not exist....

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    Re: 50 Victories of PGC10 / KPGC10 Skyline GT-R - myth or fa

    Quote Originally Posted by JT191
    Nissan copied three names: GT, GTX, and GTR. Isuzu set down the specs for the Bellett GT-R on September 22-23, 1968, when the original GTX scored favorable results against the Toyota 7 and Porsche 908. All three Skylines in that race retired, lasting at most 35 laps of the 1000 km race.
    First of all, I think it would be fairly preposterous to claim that Nissan "copied" the 'GT' acronym from Isuzu as Isuzu were certainly not the first to use it. Secondly, the 'GTX' name was fair game, as Isuzu didn't use it on a production model before Nissan. They got beaten to it, that's the long and short of it. How many cars did Isuzu use the 'GTX' name on anyway? Was it just the two, or were there more? Same too for the 'GT-R' name. Nissan beat Isuzu in putting it on a production model by more than six months. You can try to claim that the Bellett GTX was actually a Bellett GTR, but you're going to have to come up with some evidence to prove it. For sure, the Bellett GTX couldn't be both GTX and GTR.... :wink:

    About your claims for the Sept. 22nd-23rd Suzuka 1000kms above: It's a pretty tall claim to say that the Bellett GTX "scored favourable results" when one car came home eighth overall and third in class when the other one broke, just like half the rest of the field. You mention that "all three Skylines in that race retired", but you don't mention that fact that they were all privateer entries in privately prepped S54Bs. The '50 Victories' list pertains to the C10-series GT-Rs, so this race has nothing to do with that, and neither do those privateer S54Bs. Finishing ahead of that lone GTX were indeed a Toyota 7, a Porsche 906 and a Daihatsu P5, but also three Honda S800s and a Fairlady 2000.

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    Re: 50 Victories of PGC10 / KPGC10 Skyline GT-R - myth or fa

    Quote Originally Posted by JT191
    I will again point out that the 50 victory claim is undocumented. There is no published list. I have been wading through the JAF record files for four years now, and can find no evidence of the claim. And there is no published list to cite.
    If only you had asked me, I could have saved you four years of wading.... :wink:

    I don't know why you would expect to find such a list on the JAF record files? It's not JAF's business to be compiling lists of class and overall victories by model and manufacturer - that's for the manufacturer to do. They use such lists for purposes that I would think are fairly obvious, namely for sales promotion and publicity. That's why they go racing.

    Here's an example of what Nissan started doing with their list of victories once it started getting well on the way to the 50. As you can see, they had got up to 41 at the point this fold out brochure / poster kit was published after the '71 Japan Grand Prix meeting, and you can also quite clearly see that they took care to point out class victories as well as overall victories:


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    Re: 50 Victories of PGC10 / KPGC10 Skyline GT-R - myth or fa

    Alan, aka KPGC10-001218, you didn't like any of the threads already discussing this topic, you were not competent enough to provide documentation to prove your fan boy claim, but you do actually have the foolish idea that starting a thread by misquoting what has already been said will in some way make a lie true. I commend you for having more gall than brains.

    I mentioned in the hotwheels thread only that the little toy was not the original GTX. (No claim was ever made that the original GTX was a production version, only that the model shown was not the first Japanese car to use that acronym). Alan, or whatever name he desires at the moment, directly responded touting the standard line of commonly held mythology of how the Hakosuka Skyline is the only noteworthy car raced in the golden era of Japanese grand prix, and that all other vehicles are merely road going garbage. The entire content of Alan's contribution to the conversation would be accurately characterized as "50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories".

    I pointed out that the Skyline was a competent and competitive vehicle, raced among a large number of competent and competitive vehicles from other manufacturers, and that the reputation of the Skyline is not raised by claiming that every car it raced against was a piece of $hit. Quite to the contrary, recognizing the high level of competition and high quality of all vehicles fielded raises the level of the winner.

    However, having waded through the JAF race results from 1966 through 1994, I foudn that the Hakosuka did not win all, or even most, of the races it competed in. Further, there was not a total of 50 victories for the Hakosuka in total. And there were many notable events in which Hakosuka GTRs had lost by a wide margin to four cylinder cars from Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Mitsubishi, and even Isuzu.

    I had previously discussed this with some Japanese racing history buffs, and was directed to the following quote:
    [????C10?GT-R?49?????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????37?? ???????????????????240Z????????GT -R?????????5????????????????????]
    The short and concise meaning is "They used creative math".
    The more detailed version is: This claim was made in Nissan advertising only and has no other source to back it up. The count was based on class victories and excluded any other Nissan vehicle entered (Fairlady). Not a list of overall victories at all, and many class victories came from finishes that rank very far down at the bottom of the field.

    I would additionally point out that it has been mentioned in previous discussions of this topic on this website:
    As soon as the Hakosuka GTR was released and entered into racing competition, the Fairlady disappears from the entry list of nearly and all events that a Hakosula GTR is entered in. The Fairlady had previously competed head to head against the pre-GTR Hakosukas, Bellett GT, Corona, S800, Bluebird, etc. This makes every appearance of Nissan preventing the Hakosuka GTR from loosing to the Fairlady in open competition.
    Any way you measure it, the Hakosuka GTR is a six cylinder DOHC car competing against four cylinder DOHC cars.
    Nissan used a McPherson strut front suspension with lower front trailing arm only. The rest of the field used double wishbone with a shock absorber. Older technology might look like a disadvantage for the rest of the field, but the double wishbone does not loose front camber as the suspension compresses on the outside while executing a turn. McPherson strut suspension does, which induces understeer, which is the primary handling characteristic of the Hakosuka. So you have smaller displacement nimble cars racing against a larger displacement straight line car. On any track that did not have a long enough main straight for the Hakosuka to outrun the smaller displacement cars, the Hakosuka was at a serious disadvantage and most often lost.

    Further investigation revealed the class divisions after 1968 or 1969:
    1. Up to 1.6 liter Four Door.
    2. Two Door.
    3. Above 1.6 liter Four Door.
    (Displacement typo acknowledged and corrected on the hotwheel toy thread).
    Note the fact that Corona, Bellett, Bluebird, etc., all featured potent DOHC four cylinder engines which round UP to 1.6 liter from 1.5XX actual displacement.
    Also note the fact that the Hakosuka GTR was introduced as a Four Door Sedan, and only later released as a Two Door Coupe. And that the Four Door Sedans remained in competition after the Two Door was introduced.
    Why is this?
    Because Nissan could stick their car into a class where no other vehicles competed. It did not matter if the over 1.6 liter Sedan class actually finished behind the other classes. The goal was not to win against other cars, but to have a victory to count for the advertising campaign.

    Now, all this leads to one and only one conclusion:
    The claim of 50 victories is a manufactured myth without basis in fact and does not stand up to scrutiny.
    This myth exists because someone translated a piece of Nissan advertising, and posted it on Rumorpedia as a fact. People who are fans of Nissan did not question the validity of the claim, and Rumorpedia is based on popular vote, not factual verifiability. So fan-boys repeat the same myth over and over, and without any bi-lingual skeptics to challenge the myth, it keeps spreading.
    The myth is recognized in Japan by the local population as a very shaky and contrived claim which has no source other than advertising.

    I will state one more time and much more directly:
    It would be nice if fans of Hakosukas would conduct their discussion and commentary with a little more humility and a lot less arrogance. The popularity of the car is at least partially based on a myth that does not live up to the facts.

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    Re: 50 Victories of PGC10 / KPGC10 Skyline GT-R - myth or fa

    Quote Originally Posted by JT191
    I still see no list of supposed victories. Dates and places would be nice. You cite the same myth repeated so often that many who have not researched it confuse the myth for fact. Is this the appropriate point to state “Put up or shut up”? Well, it fits the situation.
    Here's another - more comprehensive - list. It is more comprehensive because it was compiled after the fact. As you can see, in the column on the far right it lists whether the victories were overall, or by class.

    If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask


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    Re: 50 Victories of PGC10 / KPGC10 Skyline GT-R - myth or fa

    If you want any details about the listed races, then please don't hesitate to ask. I have a pretty good archive of period race reports, and in some cases the programs from the actual races ( which clearly state the race dvisions / classes, and which don't bear any resemblance to what you have been describing up to now ).

    The race reports usually list all the entrants and of course the results. They don't seem to correspond with your claims that Nissan raced the GT-Rs on their own ( er, surely somebody would have noticed.... ) or that the Fairladies magically "disappeared".

    Perhaps I should pull some examples out for you - and everybody else - to demonstrate? Here's a small part of the reference material. Be my guest:


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    Re: 50 Victories of PGC10 / KPGC10 Skyline GT-R - myth or fa

    Here's another list. This one is nice because the * mark on the far left indicates a WORKS ( PMCS / SCCN ) factory race team entry. All the others without stars are either privateer entries, or 'works supported' semi-privateer efforts. Some of those 'works supported' / privateer entries got to use ex-works cars, or ex-works parts:


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    Re: 50 Victories of PGC10 / KPGC10 Skyline GT-R - myth or fa

    And here's another. I like this one because it actually shows the gaps in the numbered run of wins ( ie - it was never claimed to have been a 'straight run' of 50 ). The black stars in the far left column indicate "Haisen race". It means races lost. Not won. Beaten:


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    Re: 50 Victories of PGC10 / KPGC10 Skyline GT-R - myth or fa

    Quote Originally Posted by JT191
    Alan, aka KPGC10-001218, you didn't like any of the threads already discussing this topic, you were not competent enough to provide documentation to prove your fan boy claim, but you do actually have the foolish idea that starting a thread by misquoting what has already been said will in some way make a lie true. I commend you for having more gall than brains.
    Taking your points one-by-one: I don't see any other threads on this exact topic, I do seem to have been "competent enough" to provide documentation ( you still seem to be in denial about the existence of 'the list' ) and I have been quoting you VERBATIM. You are simply being called to account for what you wrote. Maybe that's a new experience for you? I may well have "more gall than brains", but at the moment I believe the ball is in your court. Let's see how this plays out.

    Quote Originally Posted by JT191
    I mentioned in the hotwheels thread only that the little toy was not the original GTX. (No claim was ever made that the original GTX was a production version, only that the model shown was not the first Japanese car to use that acronym). Alan, or whatever name he desires at the moment, directly responded touting the standard line of commonly held mythology of how the Hakosuka Skyline is the only noteworthy car raced in the golden era of Japanese grand prix, and that all other vehicles are merely road going garbage. The entire content of Alan's contribution to the conversation would be accurately characterized as "50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories, 50 Victories".
    So you're complaining about me "misquoting" you, but then in the next paragraph you come up with this "road going garbage" stuff. And then....

    Quote Originally Posted by JT191
    I pointed out that the Skyline was a competent and competitive vehicle, raced among a large number of competent and competitive vehicles from other manufacturers, and that the reputation of the Skyline is not raised by claiming that every car it raced against was a piece of $hit. Quite to the contrary, recognizing the high level of competition and high quality of all vehicles fielded raises the level of the winner.
    "...every car it raced against was a piece of $hit". Classy. :roll:

    Quote Originally Posted by JT191
    However, having waded through the JAF race results from 1966 through 1994, I foudn that the Hakosuka did not win all, or even most, of the races it competed in. Further, there was not a total of 50 victories for the Hakosuka in total. And there were many notable events in which Hakosuka GTRs had lost by a wide margin to four cylinder cars from Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Mitsubishi, and even Isuzu.
    1966 through 1994? The period in question for Nissan's '50 victories' claim for the C10-series GT-Rs by Nissan is 1969 through 1973! You would have found - if you had the correct reference data - that Nissan's works PMCS / SCCN entered PGC10 and KPGC10 race cars did in fact win the majority of races they were entered into, either by class and/or overall. If you have any HARD DATA from TRUSTED SOURCES which proves otherwise, then please post it here.

    Quote Originally Posted by JT191
    I had previously discussed this with some Japanese racing history buffs, and was directed to the following quote:
    [????C10?GT-R?49?????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????37?? ???????????????????240Z????????GT -R?????????5????????????????????]
    The short and concise meaning is "They used creative math".
    The more detailed version is: This claim was made in Nissan advertising only and has no other source to back it up. The count was based on class victories and excluded any other Nissan vehicle entered (Fairlady). Not a list of overall victories at all, and many class victories came from finishes that rank very far down at the bottom of the field.
    I'm not sure that I'm conversing with somebody who has any great depth of knowledge when it comes to racing. Really, what part of all this do you not understand? Of course many of the wins are class wins! Who on earth told you that they were all outright wins regardless of class? That's how mixed-class racing works! The Bellett GTXs you champion were racing primarily in class too, although - as you have taken great pains to point out - one of them did indeed take an overall win ( just like the GT-Rs did on more than one occasion - look at the LIST ). Do you honestly believe that all the different class entries that are going to be turning up for the 2011 Le Mans 24hrs next week are all expecting OUTRIGHT VICTORY? They are all racing primarily to win their class, and the chances for giant-killing are slim at best. It's the whole basis for this type of racing. Do you not understand that?

    It is simply false to state that Nissan excluded other non-GT-R Nissan entries from their list ( you cited the Fairlady ) as if they were beaten IN CLASS then it would have been common knowledge to all observers and to anyone recording / reporting events. Nissan could not delete the evidence of losses in class, as the media would show the truth. So show me some EVIDENCE of this practice please.

    There's very little "math" involved in the list. Either a cars wins its class ( and/or takes an overall victory ) or it doesn't. The victories in Nissan's list are all historically recorded class wins and/or overall race wins. Simple as that. I remind you that up to now you have been denying the existence of the list at the same time as claiming that the list was false. You can't have your cake and eat it.

    More later. I have work to do.

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    Re: 50 Victories of PGC10 / KPGC10 Skyline GT-R - myth or fa

    Quote Originally Posted by GT-R380
    ....aaaand any info you Gents may find on this worthy venture regarding the race entries and/or results for the Nissan Prince Skyline 2000 GT S54B-III (late '66 ~ early '68 events I'm guessing?) Actually anything about this model in race trim would be greatly appreciated
    Stick a broom up my arse and I'll sweep up as I go along too. :|

    How about some help with this topic, even if it's only some moral support? Some added voices of common sense would be appreciated....

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